 | Home > Off Topic > Iraq (Chilcott) Enquiry |
 
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804   
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Wow, Chilcott didn't hold back. No discussion of the legality of the war, but coruscating nonetheless. Blair will certainly be hung out to dry in the court of public opinion if sadly not in a genuine court of law. I never believed in our right to go, from before deployment to this day, and this validates that belief. I lost some good friends during the conflict and theirs (and many others) lives were wasted in what was obviously an absolute debacle, one that has left an indelible threat over UK security and tarnished our relationships in the Middle East. It's been a long time coming and reinforces my unhappiness, but it has been worth the wait. It'll will be interesting to see if the Soldiers' Families start a class action given The Hague has already said they will not consider taken an action against Blair on the basis of the findings. Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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6th Jul 2016 12:00pm |
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| gilarion Member Since: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Wales Posts: 5101  
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Exactly what was expected, one law for us and one law for them. Blair will probably now publish a book with his side of the story trying to indemnify himself… For those who like Welsh Mountains and narrow boats have a look at my videos and photos at..
http://www.youtube.com/user/conwy1 |
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6th Jul 2016 12:26pm |
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| Browny90 Member Since: 20 Jul 2015 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 183  
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There is a headline on the BBC News website saying that Soldiers are afraid to say that they served in Iraq..
Well I'm certainly not afraid to say it, and nobody I deployed with seems to be in that category either... I think it's hard to blame Blair as the sole responsible person for going to war in Iraq, it looks to me (and I'm no political professional) that he was fed incorrect information and was hasty to act on it, however, he did not just go against everybody else in parliament and say 'screw you, I'm sending them anyway' he had the backing he needed to go.. I'm far from saying he's blameless, but this doesn't just lay on his shoulders. I spent 8 months working on Snatch's, they certainly were not up to the job, some of them still had the Confidential Hotline 0800 xxx xxx on the side from when they were in NI.. (See Picture) They were unreliable due to their age, condition, the environment and inadequate armour. Mistakes were definitely made, like ''no Warrior Tanks are to go into the city as they look too aggressive''. I don't personally think that anyone should 'hang', it would be much wiser to use the experience and a steep vast learning curve and not to let it happen again and never forget those who were lost.  My 1986 90 is currently on a full rebuild, with new chassis, Paint etc.. Very much a hybrid, TD5 Chassis, tub & bulkhead with a 200TDI and LT77 GB Painted in Stornoway Grey  2 years off the road, but getting close to completion now |
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6th Jul 2016 1:43pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804
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Classic Defender rust...
 Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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6th Jul 2016 1:51pm |
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| Browny90 Member Since: 20 Jul 2015 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 183
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 it polished out and was back on the roads the next day lol...
luckily no one was injured in those snatches, one got stuck then another got stuck and burnt out the clutch trying to pull the other out, came under fire and both were denied and collected later.. My 1986 90 is currently on a full rebuild, with new chassis, Paint etc.. Very much a hybrid, TD5 Chassis, tub & bulkhead with a 200TDI and LT77 GB Painted in Stornoway Grey 2 years off the road, but getting close to completion now |
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6th Jul 2016 2:29pm |
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| Browny90 Member Since: 20 Jul 2015 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 183
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The other story of course is how Iraq helped us in Afghan.. If it weren't for Iraq, then we would have entered Afghan even less equip than we were..
We had Mastiff etc then the UOR Husky's, better body armour and generally better kit.. which was all a spin off of Iraq. Not to mention the knowledge and techniques that Iraq gave us to prepare for Afghan, I'm sure if we didn't have people and knowledge from Iraq, Afghan would have been a lot different to start with. I know Afghan wasn't exactly plain sailing, but I'm sure it was made better by experience from Iraq. Obviously just my opinion.. My 1986 90 is currently on a full rebuild, with new chassis, Paint etc.. Very much a hybrid, TD5 Chassis, tub & bulkhead with a 200TDI and LT77 GB Painted in Stornoway Grey 2 years off the road, but getting close to completion now |
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6th Jul 2016 2:37pm |
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| gilarion Member Since: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Wales Posts: 5101
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Part of Blairs reaction to the inquiry
Blair at his best or at his worst. So no real appology then For those who like Welsh Mountains and narrow boats have a look at my videos and photos at..
http://www.youtube.com/user/conwy1 |
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6th Jul 2016 3:55pm |
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| Browny90 Member Since: 20 Jul 2015 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 183
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just noticed one of my Snatches on BBC News..
It was ran down the side of by a Pakistani Truck, ripped the body work open, and if you look closely, it has no drivers door
Another snatch scrapped! My 1986 90 is currently on a full rebuild, with new chassis, Paint etc.. Very much a hybrid, TD5 Chassis, tub & bulkhead with a 200TDI and LT77 GB Painted in Stornoway Grey 2 years off the road, but getting close to completion now |
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6th Jul 2016 4:07pm |
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| JJ Member Since: 18 May 2009 Location: Winchester Posts: 932 
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Your time-lines are a little out there as we were already in Afghanistan before we decided to attack Iraq , one of the reasons in my opinion that Afghanistan went wrong was that we were stretched too thinly. Iraq was the wrong war at the wrong time and it was a crusade by Bush to finish what his dad started in the 1st Iraq campaign. What a mess. How do we even start to clear all of this up  HR064 Hampshire and Berkshire 4x4 Response |
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6th Jul 2016 4:31pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804
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I was stunned by his assertion that removing Saddam was right, that it was a last resort after all avenues had been exhausted and the decision had to be taken there and then and that he did so to protect the British people after what the US had suffered during 9/11. Interestingly, directly contrary to what Chilcott himself said. Further that not only are the current problems in Iraq nothing to do with it, but that Saddam was an equal terrorist and therefore the misery the Iraqis are currently suffering, well it would have happened anyway. In fact no, let's not stop there, let's claim (with no evidence) that had Saddam been in power when the Arab Spring started that actually Iraqis would now be worse off due to how he would have quelled it, much like Assad in Syria. Blair is coated head to toe in Teflon.... Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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6th Jul 2016 8:56pm |
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| Happyoldgit Member Since: 14 Sep 2007 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3471 
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...apart from when it comes to attracting large sums of money as an after dinner speaker etc. Steve.
Owned numerous Land Rover vehicles of all shapes and sizes over the decades. Current Defender: A non tarts hand-bagged Puma 110 XS USW. [Insert something impressive here such as extensive list of previous Land Rovers or examples of your prestigeous and expensive items, trinkets, houses, bikes, vehicles etc] http://forums.lr4x4.com I used to be Miserable ...but now I'm ecstatic. |
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6th Jul 2016 10:39pm |
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| Browny90 Member Since: 20 Jul 2015 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 183
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Yes but in 2002 there was only ~300 British troops providing security, an in 2003 it went up to battalion strength.. Even when I went to Iraq ~(2006/07) Afghan seemed to be second to Iraq in regards to priority and number of troops..
Be under no illusion, Saddam certainly did need removing from power.. It was just executed in the wrong way and a bit hasty in my opinion.. I'm sure I don't need to educate you on the horrific genocide committed by that penis, people mustn't forget that Iraq was no oil panting before we went, I'm not saying it's any better now, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. If Blair was given false or inaccurate information by intelligence agencies, how was he to know? If he was given correct information and twisted it to accommodate the Americans then that's another matter. However, the U.S are our closest allies and we have to support them as they've supported us (within reason of course). I think it was a tough call at the time with the information supplied. I don't believe any of the 179 British soldiers who died didn't want to be in Iraq, In my experience, the soldiers were excited and anxious about being in Iraq. I've lost friends due to Iraq and Afghanistan, and nothing saddens me more when I think back, but I knew those people, and they loved in their job before they were killed. Reprisal Against Dujail My 1986 90 is currently on a full rebuild, with new chassis, Paint etc.. Very much a hybrid, TD5 Chassis, tub & bulkhead with a 200TDI and LT77 GB Painted in Stornoway Grey 2 years off the road, but getting close to completion now |
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7th Jul 2016 10:29am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804
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As Browny rightly says, we all have opinions. For my part, here are some thoughts:
On the day we invaded Iraq I was on the Nuclear Biolgical Chemical Warfare Officer's course at the Defence Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Centre in Winterbourne Gunner. We had a senior scientist from Porton Down giving a lecture and during the Q&A all officers remained tight lipped, diplomatic executives as ever. A SNCO (never afraid to speak their mind), asked the scientist if there were any N,B or C weapons in Saddam's possession? He said no, he said everyone knew it and he said Blair was refusing to listen. Not unsurprisingly we were a little nonplussed. As far as removing Saddam is concerned, there have always been dictators, there are dictators and there will always be dictators. Whilst Saddam committed some horrendous atrocities, (often whilst still an ally to the West - against Iran - and covered up by them), it is no more or less than many dictatorships worldwide. We cannot, and fortunately do not, roll into every country and apply 'regime change', it never works. And how do we measure what incident, action, comment etc deserves a military response from us and what doesn't? Numbers of dead? Weapons used? Neighbouring Countries involved? UN Mandates ignored? Etc etc. The only time we should is when we are directly threatened (such as in Kosovo, on the fringes of Europe), but not when there is NO direct threat to the UK. In this instance it seemed to be threefold (IMO). In no particular order, Bushes desire for revenge over on his Dad's nemesis, a geographically central base to offer control of the region between Saudi Arabia and Iran (and handily control of oil) and because the expectation that for a gung-ho President that it would be a fairly easy victory. If, as you have pointed out, the horrors Saddam forced upon his people were the reason, why did we sit back and watch as a million plus Tutsis were killed by Hutus in ONE month? Perhaps because the West knew it would be very, very messy? Perhaps because there was no geopolitical benefit? Perhaps because there was no oil? Or maybe, most likely, all of the above? Whilst Saddam did some horrendous things, and tens of thousands died, this paled into significance over 40 years and a population of 30m people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing it, but for the vast majority of Iraqis, if you kept your head down and got on with your day to day bits and bobs, life was relatively normal. Not perfect, certainly not for all, but for the majority. I met many Iraqis who told me as such and that was within a year of the war ending after the Sadr uprising in '04. As such containment is he best foreign policy. Act when it over spills into a neighbouring ally, act when it effects a region, act when there is an internal, peoples' uprising, but don't just cherry pick campaigns and roll into some and ignore others. Either sit back and watch all the world's dictators have their fun or get involved in each and every despot's backyard. Where next, Iran? N Korea? What about the belt of Countries in Central Africa? Hang on, let's get on top of Libya and Syria. Instead the West flip flops between regimes. Remember, we put Saddam in power to act as counterweight to Khomeini who, wait a minute, we had put into power to oust the Shah after he stopped listening to the West, who, no surprise, we had also put in power. History, 100 post WW1 years of it, showed that regime change was doomed to fail. Not one attempt by (primarily) the US has been a success. Khomeini snubbed America the very day he took power. Middle finger straight at Carter. The difference in this instance, again my opinion, was that by ignoring containment (that was working perfectly well) and manipulating public fear of Weapons of Mass Destruction as the 'raison d'etre' for going in, we as a country lost any respect within the region and more importantly at a personal level, cost British soldiers' lives. In my opinion they were wasted as nothing has improved, indeed it has got worse, and far from there being a direct threat to the UK at the time we rolled in we have now created that very same threat from asymmetric attack. A self fulfilling prophecy. Libya, Egypt, Tunisia and Syria have all had their Arab Springs since that date and a lot of nationals have died and their countries are up sh**s creek, just like Iraq. So what's the difference? The difference is those populations tried regime change on their terms and it didn't cost British lives. It's a tough thing to say, it's tough to sit and watch, but how often do we get involved and risk British lives and to what end? We had our Civil War in the Middle Ages, the French and US in the 1800s, perhaps this is now the time for the Arab nations to have theirs? It won't be over night, it might take a generation, but why should British soldiers die for it if there is no direct threat to the UK or EU? So, it is my belief, that the lives lost in Iraq (British and perhaps civilian Iraqi) were in vain as the country is f***ed, their lives are not better, but worse and we now DO have a direct, clear and real threat to our country from the region directly as a result of our action? Would we had we contained Saddam in the interim? I don't believe so. Finally on serving in Iraq. Every professional soldier wants to be tested in the ultimate theatre and Iraq was it. As you rightly point out, Afghanistan was quiet and so the focus for every soldier was to deploy to Iraq, come what may. Indeed I gave up my gardening leave to serve (as I had by then resigned my commission) directly for that very experience. I flew back at the end of my tour sleeping on he deck of a C17 on a Sunday and was a civilian by the Tuesday.  . So I understand fully e soldiers' desire to serve. But that doesn't mean they believed in what they were doing. No doubt in the first few months, whipped up in popular support from locals who were suddenly free, but not after 8-12mths when the 'same' people were actually attacking them. I met many who were entirely disillusioned with the lack of security within the region, the rise in kidnappings, sectarian violence, etc. And the reason? Well I found out on being posted to the US Embassy in Baghdad as a liaison officer. By the time I arrived, almost exactly a Calendar year after the war officially ended, the upsurge in violence was extraordinary and prevelant. So almost all the projects and funds (retrospectively) planned for the regeneration of Iraq were in suspended animation as the coalition could not keep a lid on the violence and therefore ensure the security of those assisting local Iraqis build roads, schools, power stations etc. The only projects department of six (Security, Education, Legal, Oil, Power/Water and Infrastructure/Roads) that was doing anything was Security. The total fund available was $150bn (2/3rds derived from funds that was Iraqi state money, the rest a mix of money donated by the EU, US, IMF to) but by April 2004 only a 10th had been spent/allocated and almost all of it on security projects. The rest gathered dust and as far as I'm aware by the time we withdrew in 2010, most had still not been started. So a sum total of diddly squat achieved, yet a country and its infrastructure razed to the ground. But no doubt many will say that at least the Iraqi government has the remainder of the funds to tackle the projects once they've got on top of security and flushed out Isis. If only that was true. Of every $10 available, only $1 was actually being spent in Iraq the remainder going (much of it in prepayments) to big business in the US.
So there we have it. Sorry for the diatribe, but the realities as far as I see them is that we shouldn't have (and should not in the future) commit to regime change unless we are directly at threat. In that regard, Iraq was not, in any way, shape or form, a threat to the UK. Never. Blair and Bush manipulated the people and the UN. It was a fait accompli, planned long before 2003, with no desire for anything other than a quick and easy war and has since put the West (and specifically the UK) in greater than was prevelant at the time, has ruined a country that might have been perfectly stable in the same period, has cost upwards of 150,000 Iraqi civilian lives (far more I would suggest than the number that may - or may not - have been killed by Saddam in an equivalent period) and of course cost the lives of British Servicemen and Woman, not to mention those seriously wounded, and a number my friends. An entirely unnecessary waste. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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7th Jul 2016 1:15pm |
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| Ramsay Member Since: 30 Sep 2015 Location: Moffat, Dumfries & Galloway Posts: 627  
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Browny and Grenadier
Thank you for your service. Thank you to both of you for your views on the war in Iraq. They match what we were hearing from the outside but it is interesting and deeply worrying to hear it confirmed from within that the UK entered into a war to depose someone we had pretty much put in place with no idea of what we would do afterwards. The confirmation that there was no direct threat to the UK or its interests from WMD just makes it all the more pitiful. We now see a region more destabilised and a base for an ideology which sees the destruction of liberal humanitarian thinking as part of it's goal to establish everywhere a fear controlled dictatorship. 1995 Defender 110 CSW 1971 SIIA Lightweight |
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7th Jul 2016 1:48pm |
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