 | Home > Off Topic > Stolen Ifor Williams Trailer ownership debate? |
 
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| gilarion Member Since: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Wales Posts: 5109   
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Difficult one this as the trailer has passed through many hands. However as the original thief didn’t have the legal right to sell it in the first place then each successive owner did not have that right either.
In law even if you did not know the item to be stolen by selling the item you will have committed the crime of handling stolen goods. If as you say you carried out certain modifications to the trailer then also in law the trailer will be categorised as unique, and if you can prove these modifications were carried out by you that is enough to claim ownership, the term in law that covers people buying stolen goods and then claiming they did not know is Caveat Emptor (let the buyer be aware). For those who like Welsh Mountains and narrow boats have a look at my videos and photos at.. http://www.youtube.com/user/conwy1 |
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7th Nov 2015 4:25pm |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8580 
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This may well be a can of worms and I can see why the police may well be seen as backing off.
Are you sure your mother is still the legal owner of it? Reason why I ask that question is did an insurance company pay out for the theft of the trailer? If so the legal ownership of it may well have passed over to the insurance company. The big problem is now do you/your mother have any paperwork confirming original purchase, any paperwork associated with any possible insurance payout etc. Even if there was no insurance payout, have you got details of the crime number etc so you can prove that your fathers trailer was actually stolen? Yes you can identify that trailer, the current 'keeper' of the trailer has a bill of sale for it, but can you prove in a court that your fathers trailer was stolen, that there was no insurance payout and so no transfer of ownership? Yes I can see the excitement of 'finding' your fathers stolen trailer and the frustration of the trailer not being returned. If there was an insurance payout then the insurance company may well be the legal owner, they might want to reclaim the trailer and then sell it on so they can recoup some money. Brendan |
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7th Nov 2015 4:50pm |
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| Andy80 Member Since: 31 May 2013 Location: Essex Posts: 490  
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Hi Brendan,
No insurance claim was ever made as this was 3rd trailer to be stolen! ( there was a large traveler site 3 miles away)and near enough I'm possible to insure!! We have the original crime number and the police have the original paperwork with Ifor Williams id number quoted. Were see what happens I guess and go from there... Working towards Carry on camping! |
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7th Nov 2015 5:22pm |
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| TD5_dan Member Since: 24 Feb 2012 Location: Essex Posts: 449 
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No can of worms there now mate, that's Essex police for you as soon as means they have to do something they back down. Couldn't catch a cold. They want to stop stalling and get you your trailer back! Unfortunately doesn't matter if the bloke has a receipt from buying it can't see how it's any different from buying a stolen car they will still take that away from you. 2001 TD5 110 County Station Wagon - sold
1970 Series 2A Station Wagon 1970 Series 2A hard top 1960 Series 2 1972 Series 3 |
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7th Nov 2015 5:32pm |
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| ken Member Since: 18 Aug 2009 Location: Banging Birds with my bitches !! Posts: 4328
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Go and Steal it back ?
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7th Nov 2015 5:40pm |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8580
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You have cleared away a lot of the worms! My suggestion is that you go over the head of the WPC. Approach the station commander by phone, letter and email clearly stating the crime number, trailer ID, date of theft etc and clearly state who now has possession of your family property and give them say 7-10 days to reclaim your family possession. Make sure you have a clear record of time, date, names of police offices you have dealt with. Now after giving your local police station commander a reasonable time to respond, you complain to the Chief constable and the local PCC that police officers X, Y, Z are not carrying out their duties. When you are about to do this tell your local police station. Now if you have family solicitors it might be worthwhile having a quick chat with them and see if there are any other legal steps that can be undertaken to ensure return of your family possessions. Brendan |
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7th Nov 2015 6:07pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804  
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I'm not helping with any 'facts' but I am sure I've seen multiple Dom Liitlewood-esque programmes in which the new/current owners of stolen goods loose any right to it immediately the police ascertain the fact and have it whipped off them in a flash to add a bit of 'sob-sob' to the story. Never remember court cases etc required to prove it. And the new owners are out of pocket, disgruntled and with no recourse. Makes an episode of Watchdog more dramatic and sadder than Eastenders....
 Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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7th Nov 2015 6:48pm |
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| Ranger Member Since: 17 Nov 2011 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 75 
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It's stolen property, simple, the Police have an obligation to seize it, failure to do so is a dereliction of duty. They've already identified the trailer as being the stolen one. A strongly worded letter from your solicitor and a complaint to the Ombudsman will work wonders. Although after 13 yrs, it is passed the statute of limitation for prosecution,
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7th Nov 2015 6:59pm |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8580
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This is the pan-European part of the login replying.
This strikes me as a perfect example of why trailers, caravans etc should have their own vehicle passport as in the rest of Europe. It won't stop them getting stolen but it might make it easier to prove ownership and while we are at it I don't have a problem with them having to have an annual safety inspection too. We have our trailers/caravan regularly serviced but how many dodgy ones are out there. Barbara |
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7th Nov 2015 10:42pm |
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| Projectblue Member Since: 22 Nov 2011 Location: Devon Posts: 1096
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The reason the Police have asked is because the current owner of the trailer has bought it in all good faith, and has proof of purchase. Therefore one has to prove it was taken from you in the first place.
It's regarding possession is 9/10ths and all that. But it's not the Police's job to make the decision. Because there is no way to prove the current owner knowingly accepted stolen goods then it's for a magistrate to make the decision. I doubt there is much of a problem doing that given the information, but don't be surprised if there is a delay in getting it done. Everyone is thin on the ground these days  New project and it's green: www.projectoverland.info |
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8th Nov 2015 1:13am |
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| SailingTom Member Since: 19 Nov 2013 Location: ESSEX Posts: 1720
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Brendans answer there is the perfect one.
100% and if you have the crime number and purchase details you should be in luck. Unfortunately, you'll struggle if its still on a questionable caravan site as Essex police seem to stay away from them and do less than normal in those cases! Best of luck though, it may take a while but definitely worth following up on, speak to your solicitor and maybe get a letter put together as has been already said. Tom |
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8th Nov 2015 7:44am |
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| Andy80 Member Since: 31 May 2013 Location: Essex Posts: 490
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As far as i know its at normal residential address and will leave it couple of days until i make contact with a superior in Essex Police. I think there dragging there heals due to paperwork and cost inured for recovery etc...
Thanks Andy Working towards Carry on camping! |
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9th Nov 2015 2:56pm |
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| ARC99 Member Since: 19 Feb 2013 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1831 
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I do not disagree with what has been said, The property, trailer , would have been passed the ownership of your mother had it not been stolen. The police have confirmed that it is the same trailer therefore they should without fail recover the trailer into safe keeping as this would prevent it from being sold on and return it to your mother. The person currently have custody of it does not have title to it as it was stolen.
Now there is something nagging at the back of my mind ( no not the wife) about this situation. I reading about something similar while working for a living, that resulted in the rightful owner and person caught in possession both had to attend court for a settlement as to who was the rightful owner. I cannot remember the exact details but I am sure it was under the Property Act . I would not wait, I would get straight onto an office senior in rank to the P.C. that spoke to you, demand that the recover the trailer as the person now in possession knows that they are likely to loose it and their cash and will move it on to recover the cash. Don't make old people mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to  us off.
Richard |
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9th Nov 2015 5:02pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Common sense dictates that the OP should be able to recover the trailer; however, the Theft Act is a poor piece of legislation that allows lawyers to argue the finer points of the language such that the average policeman may think it's more than their jobs worth.
Good luck and let us know how you get on. |
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9th Nov 2015 5:46pm |
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