 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Engine turns many times before it starts |
 
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| AlexSmith Member Since: 05 Sep 2013 Location: Arroio do Meio, RS Posts: 47   
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Hi, people!
After searching around, I found many threads about engine starting problems, but couldn't find someone with exactly this same issue. It doesn't happen every time I try to start the engine. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. Rnadomly, not seeming to be weather-related. With engine cold, I try to start it and it turns many times before it starts. By "many times", I mean 5, 6, sometimes 10 turns before it fires up. I get more blue smoke as engine does more turns to start. I recently cleaned the EGR and MAF. They were really dirty, full of a raw-oil-like substance. But this problem with the engine showed up long before I did this cleaning, so the cleaning being the cause is out of question, IMO. The fuel heater also doesn't seem to be the problem, because the weather here is not cold and it seems to be functioning just fine (dash light turns on and, after 1 or 2 seconds, it goes off. The corresponding relay sound can also be heard.). Do you think this can be happening due to the admission being also full of this sticky oily substance? Maybe I need to service the fuel injectors? Any help is much appreciated. Thanks a lot! 2020: Defender 110 SW 300 Tdi 2004 Alpine White 2013-2017: Defender 110 S 2.4 (Puma) 2008 Stornoway Gray 2002-2005: Defender 90 CSW 300 Tdi Dark Green |
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20th Sep 2015 1:27pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
As it is a 2008 Puma then the build up on the MAP sensor and EGR is normal on an engine that does not have the EGR blanked or disabled through a remap. The MAF sensor sounds as if it is original but that would not inhibit the engine starting as the EMS would default to stored values if the MAF was kaput. As to the glow plug heat icon on the dash and the fact you can hear the relay time out does not mean the glow plugs are working. Chances are all four have gone but it is very easy to check them to see. You can put a DMM on each one and check for an open circuit, if there is an open circuit then the glow plug is probably kaput though when you remove the plug you can test it using the battery and a jump lead. Also check the harness to the glow plugs as this is easily damaged through corrosion. You can test this as well with an amp meter to see the current draw at the furthest glow plug. If you discount this as the source of the starting issue then we can move onto the next set of diagnostics.
http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic24757....=glow+plug What makes you think it is the injectors? Are any leaking? Is there any damage to the injector harness? Do you have access to a vehicle oscilloscope? If so this would be the easy way to check for an injector issue and would discount any interference from the immobiliser even with the starter motor turning the engine over as this would normally be inhibited along with the injectors circuit if the immobiliser was active. |
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20th Sep 2015 2:21pm |
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| AlexSmith Member Since: 05 Sep 2013 Location: Arroio do Meio, RS Posts: 47
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Thanks for the quick reply, guys!
Vehicle has about 130,000km (80,778 miles), but I believe you mean "miles done after last check", which is something I really don't know. What I know is that I never checked the injectors in the last 40,000km (24,854 miles) i.e. since I'm the owner. According to the manual, all maintenance was made in time by previous owners.
Precious information here!
Wow! What a lesson! Thank you very much! I'll check the glow plugs with the digital multimeter, as you suggested and post results here.
I see no leaks at all. I was thinking injectors could have become dirty or kind of jammed. Don't know if that makes sense.
I think I can get an oscilloscope from a friend, if needed. But I'll go for the glow plugs first, as you suggested. Let's see what happens. I'll post the feedback here as soon as I do it. 2020: Defender 110 SW 300 Tdi 2004 Alpine White 2013-2017: Defender 110 S 2.4 (Puma) 2008 Stornoway Gray 2002-2005: Defender 90 CSW 300 Tdi Dark Green |
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20th Sep 2015 4:06pm |
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| AlexSmith Member Since: 05 Sep 2013 Location: Arroio do Meio, RS Posts: 47
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BTW, I saw this post: http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=84217
I have no faults shown on the OBD scanner. If glow plugs are burnt (kaput  ), shouldn't I have error codes shown? 2020: Defender 110 SW 300 Tdi 2004 Alpine White
2013-2017: Defender 110 S 2.4 (Puma) 2008 Stornoway Gray 2002-2005: Defender 90 CSW 300 Tdi Dark Green |
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20th Sep 2015 4:13pm |
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| AlexSmith Member Since: 05 Sep 2013 Location: Arroio do Meio, RS Posts: 47
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As we're discussing glow plug testing among other things, I think this video might be of help to those wanting to do this test.
Although the video shows glow plugs removed for testing, the resistance can certainly be checked with them in place. 2020: Defender 110 SW 300 Tdi 2004 Alpine White 2013-2017: Defender 110 S 2.4 (Puma) 2008 Stornoway Gray 2002-2005: Defender 90 CSW 300 Tdi Dark Green |
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20th Sep 2015 6:48pm |
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| AlexSmith Member Since: 05 Sep 2013 Location: Arroio do Meio, RS Posts: 47
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I just checked the glow plugs (I guess). See this image:
Image is not mine, but I got exactly the same issue reported there. Seems like there is a missing bolt to hold that connection on the engine. Not a major issue though, as the cable is rigid enough and isolated to avoid touching any ground. Click image to enlarge The image above shows exactly the screw I'm talking about (see HS1 text).
To check the glow plugs, I put the multimeter in 200 Ohms and put one end on the top of the glow plug (see arrows on the image above) and the other end on the chassis (anywhere I could find a ground). The measures were all the same, around 1.5 Ohms. If I understood it right, if some glow plug was bad, it should show as "open circuit" (kind of a "number 1" on the DMM display) or a resistance value much greater than 1.5 Ohm. Following this logic, I would say the glow plugs are functional. Next, I changed DDM to Volts and measured voltage between that loosen screw and any ground. It should show me 0V when ignition switch is turned off and around 12V when dash glow plug light is on. From my check, I noticed about 0V (0.0-0.2V) with switch off and 12V with switch on. If I turned switch off, the 12V remained for about 10 seconds, then it dropped to zero. From my understanding, the system is working correctly. Am I missing something? 2020: Defender 110 SW 300 Tdi 2004 Alpine White 2013-2017: Defender 110 S 2.4 (Puma) 2008 Stornoway Gray 2002-2005: Defender 90 CSW 300 Tdi Dark Green |
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20th Sep 2015 7:32pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
Did you remove the glow plug common feed rail from all four glow plugs before doing the resistance test? Remember you want to test the resistance value of the individual glow plug not the circuit as a whole.
Personally I would remove them and use a jump lead and the battery to test them getting warm individually. Use a pair of water pump pliers holding the glow plug around the threaded body, connect the jump lead to the end of the glow plug and touch the pliers against the engine (Earth) to complete the circuit. If it does not start to glow red within 5 seconds its a dud. Also, not wishing to teach you how to suck eggs, don't allow the jump lead to go to earth or it will weld itself to whatever it is earthed too. |
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20th Sep 2015 9:30pm |
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| AlexSmith Member Since: 05 Sep 2013 Location: Arroio do Meio, RS Posts: 47
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Man, I feel really ashamed! 
You're totally right! Of course that measure shows "some glow plugs may be ok, while others don't"! I didn't remove the common feed rail before testing. I'm so dumb!
I'll do the measure again, if I can manage to remove the common feed without having to remove the entire intake manifold. Those glow plugs are really kind of under it!
Sure. If I have to remove the manifold, I'll do a thorough testing. 2020: Defender 110 SW 300 Tdi 2004 Alpine White 2013-2017: Defender 110 S 2.4 (Puma) 2008 Stornoway Gray 2002-2005: Defender 90 CSW 300 Tdi Dark Green |
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26th Sep 2015 2:21am |
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| AlexSmith Member Since: 05 Sep 2013 Location: Arroio do Meio, RS Posts: 47
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Think I found the main cause. Maybe not the only cause. Starter motor. I removed, disassembled, did a very good clean up, replaced the brush plate (along with brushes) and refitted. It's another car now!
I did a video documenting the process. It is available here: https://vimeo.com/141443209 Hope it helps someone! 2020: Defender 110 SW 300 Tdi 2004 Alpine White 2013-2017: Defender 110 S 2.4 (Puma) 2008 Stornoway Gray 2002-2005: Defender 90 CSW 300 Tdi Dark Green |
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5th Oct 2015 10:09pm |
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| RED-DOT Member Since: 29 Jun 2009 Location: stirling Posts: 2363 
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Excellent video... My starter was clicking, doing nothing and causing the engine to cut out. It has been going downhill for years and the new one is livlier and quieter. I would advise a clean up or renewal if in doubt. I believe clutch dust can slow them down badly too.
Thanks for vid.  2008 RS4 gone, 123d M Sport, and a Puma 90 XS.. |
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5th Oct 2015 10:51pm |
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