leeds wrote:

At the risk of being accused of bombarding people, how does one actually compare different items without using performance figures? When it comes to appearance of different items that is down to personal choice/opinion.


There is nothing odd or apple and pears about the figures I have quoted.

That data is taken from the manufacturers website and to the best of my knowledge is accurate. If I have made a mistake in those figures, that I have taken from the manufacturers website please tell me. IF I make factual errors in anything please tell me and I will correct it.


Last night drove home in vehicle with Noldens in, night before it was standard LR candles, tonight it should be in a vehicle with JWS 8700 in. I know which one I prefer come nighttime driving, however that is my personal opinion.


Brendan

ericvv wrote:

Only want to add one last comment here after reading venomator's fairly opinionated last post.
We still may be down to comparing apples with pears here as there are no clearly established international standards (like DIN for instance) referred to by either of the two brands in question for their published lumen numbers. So until we would know that both companies use exactly the same common denominator, i.e. identical testing and reporting variables, one has to remain careful in using those lumen numbers to proof that one is better than the other.
Basically until someone, ideally Nolden and Speaker themselves, confirm that they use the same testing/reporting standards, the comparison of the Nolden lumen number with the Speaker lumen number just means nothing at all for trying to proof that one is better than the other. The numbers as we read them are just numbers, not related to a clearly specified one and the same standard. If there is first hand explanation which proofs me wrong I will be the first to accept that here.
So for now I think that our eyeball test actually has more value than these numbers.
We did a test of both side by side in relative darkness, so in identical conditions, and while I do not disagree that the human eye is also not absolutely perfect, looking at the pictures taken by one and the same camera showing that both products light output is pretty much the same confirms that one is not really throwing out much different amount of light than the other.
The differences are minor, a bit different whites, one having a bit more of a hot spot than the other, but otherwise, as we already concluded in the eyeball test, it comes more down to personal preferences about the looks than anything else.
Except of course for the IP ratings, which are tested according a clearly accepted standard, and higher is indeed better.
Not going to enter into discussion about the USA versus Germany argument, as not even sure if the Nolden are really fully manufactured in the latter country, given Nolden partnership with Microlights, Taiwan (as you can read on the Nolden website).
http://www.noldengmbh.de/en/company/business-partner
I am sure that in either of those three countries the knowledge exists to produce top quality products.
Eric

ericvv wrote:

For now, the only numbers which can be compared with confidence is those provided by Speaker for the EVO and for the EVO2, we can assume that one manufacturer will use the same testing standard for his lights, yes?
Eric

Quote:

Raw Lumens
A measure of the theoretical output of a light. In the case of LED lights, this figure is computed by multiplying the LED manufacturer’s lumen rating for the LED by the number of LEDs in the light. Raw Lumens is not representative of the actual light output because it does not take into account the electrical and optical losses that impact all lights.

Quote:

Effective Lumens
A measure of the actual output of a light. The Effective Lumen output is measured using a photometric testing device and takes into consideration electrical and optical losses, so it is a better representation of the useful visible light that is produced.

mpm wrote:

Does the rubber boot which reduces water ingress to the connection on OEM lights fit any of the led lights,

Yes the OEM boot does fit!


Click image to enlarge If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!

Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!!

leeds wrote:

ericvv wrote:

For now, the only numbers which can be compared with confidence is those provided by Speaker for the EVO and for the EVO2, we can assume that one manufacturer will use the same testing standard for his lights, yes?
Eric

NO you can NOT make that assumption!


Noldens have always quoted a raw lumen output and a measured lumen output


JWSpeaker have quoted a raw lumen output and an effective lumen output.


From JW Speaker website

Quote:

Raw Lumens
A measure of the theoretical output of a light. In the case of LED lights, this figure is computed by multiplying the LED manufacturer’s lumen rating for the LED by the number of LEDs in the light. Raw Lumens is not representative of the actual light output because it does not take into account the electrical and optical losses that impact all lights.

Now JW Speaker used to CALCULATE the effective lumen output. Eric, you used to complain that I was comparing the 8700 CALCULATED lumen output with the Nolden MEASURED light output.


Now I quote JW Speaker website again

Quote:

Effective Lumens
A measure of the actual output of a light. The Effective Lumen output is measured using a photometric testing device and takes into consideration electrical and optical losses, so it is a better representation of the useful visible light that is produced.

So NO you can NOT assume that JW Speaker figures has been done the same way. On JW Speaker 8700 they CALCULATED effective lumen but for the JW Speaker 8700 EVO2 it is a MEASURED lumen output.

That is your apple and pears argument within the same company.



So JW Speaker 8700 Evo 2 MEASURED light output by a photometric testing device is 1150 lumens

Noldens 7" Bi Led MEASURED light output is 1700 lumens


Now I am prepared to accept both manufacturers measured light output figures.


Like wise I am prepared to accept their respective IP ratings, current draw, physical measurements etc. On none of those measurements do either manufacturer state what particular test standards they have used.


Brendan

K9F wrote:

Aside from that irrespective of output etc....The IP rating to me is of paramount importance with my experience. You can have a light with the highest lumen/candellas/Swan Vesta (or whatever you want to call it) output in the World. Fill the lens with condensation how good is that output and beam pattern then?

IP67 Immersion up to 1 m

Ingress of water in harmful quantity shall not be possible when the enclosure is immersed in water under defined conditions of pressure and time (up to 1 m of submersion).

Test duration: 30 minutes
The lowest point of enclosures with a height less than 850 mm is located 1000 mm below the surface of the water, the highest point of enclosures with a height equal to or greater than 850 mm is located 150 mm below the surface of the water



IP6K9K

German standard DIN 40050-9 extends the IEC 60529 rating system described above with an IP69K rating for high-pressure, high-temperature wash-down applications.[7] Such enclosures must not only be dust-tight (IP6X), but it must also be able to withstand high-pressure and steam cleaning.

The test specifies a spray nozzle that is fed with 80 °C water at 8–10 MPa (80–100 bar) and a flow rate of 14–16 L/min. The nozzle is held 10–15 cm from the tested device at angles of 0°, 30°, 60° and 90° for 30 seconds each. The test device sits on a turntable that rotates once every 12 seconds (5 rpm).

The IP69K test specification was initially developed for road vehicles, especially those that need regular intensive cleaning (dump trucks, cement mixers, etc.), but it also finds use in other areas (for example, the food industry and car wash centers).




To date I have not heard of one case of condensation in Nolden lights

Trucklites also have an IP rating IP69K

The lights mentioned by the OP are quoted as waterproof but without an IP rating.

So to best of my knowledge the only LED headlights available in the UK with the highest water proof ratings of 9K are Truck Lites and Noldens


Brendan


Edited to add

Eric, Lazer Lamps, a respected UK manufacturer of LED light bars does not quote a standard for their light output

Light Force, a respected Australian manufacturer of lights including LEDs quotes raw lumens and does not quote any standard used for measuring light output.

So basically you do not accept the light figures from several of the worlds major light manufacturer