DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - New defender market research day

↓ Advertise on Defender2 ↓

Home · FAQ · New Posts · My Posts · PMs · Search · Members · Map · Calendar · Profile · Donate · Register · Log In

Home > General & Technical (L663) > New defender market research day

Page 4 of 7

Print this entire topic ·

What puddle?

Member Since: 25 Oct 2013
Location: Reading
Posts: 952

Setok, is there much left that they could cling on to, because all I hear is that they lost the market some time ago? I was chatting to a Shogun owner the other day in Screwfix. He said that where he worked they had got rid of all their Defenders and gone over to Toyotas. He was originally from Zimbabwe, and said that LR had lost the market there "years ago". Like I said, LR will go where the money is, and if the market for a rough 4x4 isn't there, or has been lost, or is too small, then LR will look toward a different market.

I love owning a Defender, this is my third. I love the simplicity, the driving position, it's V8, and it's auto box. But most of all I love it because it's different and has character - and that's why I put up with all the absurd bits. I don't go off-road because mine isn't really set up for it, I don't get time, and because I've never done it!

LR will produce a DC100 of sorts - aiming for a 'trendy' type customer base, and they will do that because THAT is where the money is - like it or not. Just look how successful the Evoque has been, despite it's ridiculously-cramped rear seat. It's the future, get used to it, because there is NEVER going to be another Defender like the current one - by any manufacturer, there just isn't a big enough market to justify pouring millions into the project. Now left.

24th Jun 2014 4:41pm

mk1collector

Member Since: 17 Sep 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 6769

i like the dc100

24th Jun 2014 6:01pm

willy eckerslike

Member Since: 15 Jun 2009
Location: North yorks
Posts: 1789

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 HCPU Keswick Green

I don't think moaning to Land Rover will make any difference whatsoever, they could have competed in the
utility / pick up market years ago had they wanted too, after all they had the market share and just watched it dwindle away. They say they have to sell X amount of units to make the Defender viable, well it would have been if they had kept up with the competition, it wouldn't have taken much to keep the offroad capability and toughness but build in some more modern features / corrosion resistence / reliability, after all other manufacturers have managed it. I think they are only really interested in the expensive premium market, look at the price of an evoque and while its a great car its bloody expensive and the fuel economy is a disaster compared to rivals. Whats the point in having great offroad ability as per the Discovery when you daren't risk a scratch due to it costing 50k, and if you did regularly offroad it it isn't long before bearings / suspension bushes / tyres are US. I will certainly look at the new Defender and if I don't like it then i'll keep my present one, look after it and i'm sure it will last many years. Original Member Pie n Pea Club.
110 HCPU Tipper

24th Jun 2014 6:38pm

What puddle?

Member Since: 25 Oct 2013
Location: Reading
Posts: 952

I love the DC100 - it has grown on me, but I can't see myself buying one as it will be stupidly expensive. That's the only thing certain about the next Defender! Now left.

24th Jun 2014 6:45pm

mk1collector

Member Since: 17 Sep 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 6769

But because they will be throw away cars (unlike the defender) the price will drop like a stone when they fall out of fashion so should be reasonably priced for a second hand one.

24th Jun 2014 7:19pm

What puddle?

Member Since: 25 Oct 2013
Location: Reading
Posts: 952

Will that happen? Three years on, the cheapest used Evoque in the country is £24,000. I can see the rugged little DC100 holding its own. Now left.

24th Jun 2014 7:40pm

Cupboard

Member Since: 21 Mar 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 2971

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 HT Corris Grey

The Defender is still the only pickup on the market that I'm aware of with permanent 4WD (good for towing) and coil suspension at the back (good for offroad).

24th Jun 2014 7:43pm

Setok

Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 419

What puddle? wrote:
Setok, is there much left that they could cling on to, because all I hear is that they lost the market some time ago? I was chatting to a Shogun owner the other day in Screwfix. He said that where he worked they had got rid of all their Defenders and gone over to Toyotas. He was originally from Zimbabwe, and said that LR had lost the market there "years ago". Like I said, LR will go where the money is, and if the market for a rough 4x4 isn't there, or has been lost, or is too small, then LR will look toward a different market.

True, market share has been lost. It's worth considering why, considering how much brand value there is. Most companies would try to look at that why, and develop a competitive response. But I guess that's not the British way (as we've seen too many times in the past).

What puddle? wrote:

I love owning a Defender, this is my third. I love the simplicity, the driving position, it's V8, and it's auto box. But most of all I love it because it's different and has character - and that's why I put up with all the absurd bits. I don't go off-road because mine isn't really set up for it, I don't get time, and because I've never done it!

All Defenders are set up for it

It's good fun (and no, I'm not serious about it, but it's fun to see the capability in action).

What puddle? wrote:

LR will produce a DC100 of sorts - aiming for a 'trendy' type customer base, and they will do that because THAT is where the money is - like it or not. Just look how successful the Evoque has been, despite it's ridiculously-cramped rear seat. It's the future, get used to it, because there is NEVER going to be another Defender like the current one - by any manufacturer, there just isn't a big enough market to justify pouring millions into the project.

Well we still have the Wrangler and the G Wagon, and a number of newer utes, so apparently there is money in it, and there are companies who are proud to show that, unlike with Land Rover where they have long seemed almost embarrassed by the Defender. Certainly most people I meet seem to assume they don't make them anymore, whereas everyone knows Jeep still builds the Wrangler. And for good reason too: brand value, halo, and probably reasonably good sales too. Lack of brand understanding and pure bean counting is often cited as one of the reasons for the demise of the British car industry. Think about it...

24th Jun 2014 7:47pm

mk1collector

Member Since: 17 Sep 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 6769

What puddle? wrote:
Will that happen? Three years on, the cheapest used Evoque in the country is £24,000. I can see the rugged little DC100 holding its own.

That's because they are the fashion item of the moment, but like the new mini did, the complete saturation of the market will see prices drop when the next big thing comes along.

24th Jun 2014 10:25pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

smb wrote:
JLR would have imposed strict confidentiality contracts with anyone let near a possible replacement.

You seem to have forgotten the window tinter and new RRS fiasco

25th Jun 2014 7:36am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

What puddle? wrote:
Land Rover are not going to build a new Defender for those on here who like rivets. They will follow the money and do what makes business sense. If it made sense to re-model the current Defender then they would do it. Just come away from this forum for 20 minutes and read 'normal' car forums that mention the DC100 - it's liked, simple as that. LR will do focus groups ad gauge opinion. If Joe Public likes the DC100 then that will become reality. My personal opinion (for what it's worth) is that we are going to see a version fairly close to the DC100, but not straying too close to Evoque. If you read other 'normal' car forums, as I have, then you'll see that there is a recognition of the iconic vehicle it is replacing, BUT NOT AS MUCH AS WE THINK! We are bound to lean toward a traditional Defender, otherwise we wouldn't be on here. But DefenderDC100 has got to appeal to more than just us. It should be rough and ready, but it should also appeal to those that NEVER go off-road...and there are an awful lot of those on here (like me). As Munch90 say, the standard of the current one is woeful. Buy a new Defender and the first thing you have to do is take it to Zagato to get it undersealed. That's terrible! The time has come for a new King. He won't have the same character as the old King, but then he never could have had.

I think you are bang on the money here.

I think an analogy with the old and new Mini would demonstrate what will likely happen. The new Mini was scoffed at by old Mini forums pointing out all the differences, especially the size. The talk was that it was not good enough or a worthy successor. I guess many of those expressing that view then, still hold it today. Nevertheless, the new Mini has been a great commercial success for BMW and what other measure of success should a commercial entity really take any interest in?

Isn't there enough third party suppliers, re-manufacturers and builders out there to keep the current stock of Defender owners happy until they are all well in the grave? in the meantime, we will see the birth of a new ownership base that will probably grow to completely swamp the current Defender forums; although I'm guessing that the ratio of new owners to forum regulars will be alot lower.

Does this guy look upset at having created this?

Click image to enlarge

or embarassed to be wearing this:

Click image to enlarge

I'm sure my brand values don't align with his

25th Jun 2014 7:45am

K9F

Member Since: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 9610

2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey

^^^No pictures visible? Is this like the story of the King's New Clothes?

Supacat wrote:
although I'm guessing that the ratio of new owners to forum regulars will be alot lower.

Interesting point. I wonder if they'll tinker, tweak, fettle and general 'mess about' with theirs as we do? I doubt it for the first few years anyway. Thing is I think it will be available with everything you desire and very limited (initially) aftermarket add-ons.

What puddle? wrote:
I love the DC100 - it has grown on me, but I can't see myself buying one as it will be stupidly expensive. That's the only thing certain about the next Defender!

What Puddle again you are spot on. I always have liked the DC100 for the very reasons you stated. Brass Tacks.....JLR are in the business to make money not keep stallwart dinosaurs like us happy. Whatever does replace the Defender will be very attractive to the Clandestine Mad Max within Joe Public and I'll wager will sell like hotcakes.
As to whether it has the capability to transcend Devil's Dyke, Dante's Peak or the pits of Hell or wherever you wish to roam will I think be immaterial.

Me, I'm more of a Judge Dredd fan and that V8 3.5 Land Rover was/is up for sale......

http://www.classiccars-forsale.com/land-rover-city-cab-1994/ If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!

Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!!

25th Jun 2014 9:03am

defender_uk

Member Since: 12 Aug 2011
Location: SW Scotland
Posts: 197

22900013A wrote:
mk1collector wrote:
With the diversity of people on this defender based forum, is it just me that finds it strange that the two people who have seen the new defender have recently joined and seem to be very coy on details? Maybe I'm just being too suspicious in thinking its Landrover trying to butter us up

I happen to agree. I think that at least some of the regular contributors who have recently bought new vehicles would have been invited along, I only live half an hour or so from Stoneleigh myself.

+1 2020 First Ed 110.

replaced by 2021 250 110 Commercial

Defender_uk

25th Jun 2014 12:49pm

BuckBlu110

Member Since: 19 Apr 2014
Location: in the pub
Posts: 712

1994 Defender 110 BMW M57 3.0 Diesel CSW Buckingham Blue

A lot of people tend to forget that the defender replacement wont be one model, it'll be a family of vehicles, like range rover, which covers the sport, evoque and of course of the FFRR. So we may well see dc100 or something similar, for a particular market, but we'll also see a more utilitarian model like a pickup for commercial users and people that like the original. Ill post a link that states this, if I can find it. I was at a well known dealership in solihul the other week, and I was talking to the one of the dealers about the replacement for the defender and he seemed to think that the station wagon will be more like the current discovery than the dc100. So saying that, jim4244 may have seen a station wagon version that may be a top of the range or more up market model than the two models previously mentioned.
who knows, we'll just have to wait and see.

25th Jun 2014 1:36pm

Setok

Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 419

Supacat wrote:

I think you are bang on the money here.

I think an analogy with the old and new Mini would demonstrate what will likely happen. The new Mini was scoffed at by old Mini forums pointing out all the differences, especially the size. The talk was that it was not good enough or a worthy successor. I guess many of those expressing that view then, still hold it today. Nevertheless, the new Mini has been a great commercial success for BMW and what other measure of success should a commercial entity really take any interest in?

The problem with this analogy is that for it to work you should be claiming there is no money or business in making small cars fit for the everyman budget (the original market of the Mini). Quite obviously this is not true, but that BMW has decided not to associate their MINI brand with that market. For sure their product is successful as a fashion item, but it really has very little to do with the original Mini, apart from decreasingly superficial ties. Do I think it's sad the brand has lost that link? Yes, a bit, especially with them becoming so fat these days. The latest batch is positively ugly, and they might be beginning to losing brand value.

The situation is also different in that LR already has a full range of fashionable 4x4s. A big part of the sell there is that they are truly capable (even if nobody uses them for that), and sit along a heritage of proper 4x4 stuff. There are similarities here to the sports car market, where it's important to play on that image and feel that you *could* be racing on a track in what you're driving, even if you never do. It's why all the sports car manufacturers tend to create, in addition to their more mainstream products, something which is true to the racing legacy, and which can live up to their name. This is also why Jeep will never drop the Wrangler: if when you're buying a Cherokee, you're living the dream that you could be that crazy rock climbing adventurous person.

Land Rover is doing the exact opposite. They're dropping the product which lends them credibility, halo, authenticity, heritage. I mean even I've had moments where I could consider a Disco, for a something a bit more 'soft', all the while knowing that the authenticity is still there. But without the Defender I actually wouldn't buy a Disco either, as the company kind of loses brand value as a proper 4x4 company that represents people travelling the world and saving elephants, even while selling me something more 'city compatible'.

This is why Jeep doesn't drop the Wrangler, and why Porsche will never drop the 911, even though neither exactly makes any pure sense.

25th Jun 2014 8:58pm

Page 4 of 7

All times are GMT

Jump to

< Previous Topic | Next Topic >

Posting Rules

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum