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| chalky Member Since: 09 May 2008 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 483   
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There is no way a dealer could end a warranty if they suspected that a "Whif" of tuning had taken place !
They would have to have hard fact and prove that any damage had occured by any such aplication being written into any EMS, i have another car that has been remapped and this went to the main dealers for bent alloys and excessive tyre scrub ! it was suggested that it had been remapped by the dealers and that they would not foot the bill for replacement wheels and tyres ! all of which had just been fitted to the vehicle ? cost £5,800 GBP: I had dropped the car off mid week and picked it up on Saturday morning. I told them to take them off and fit the others back on ! i was told there was no way that could happen as the wheels and tyres had gone back to audi UK for scrutinisation ! i rang audi UK and nothing had been sent back ! They ended up being advertised on FLE-ABAY locally ! The car stayed at the dealers for 7 weeks ! i suggested a likely explanation for the disapearance of my alloys the dealer claimed i was making things up ! I took legal action against thye dealers and i bought the wheels and tyres off ebay to prove it with a stupid high bid and never picked them up ! The guy who was selling them even contacted me from an audi email address ! Dont believe the hype ! they wouldnt dare ! DEFENDER XS CSW 08 TONGA GREEN |
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5th Aug 2008 7:44pm |
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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5035 
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Actually you are not correct and ill offer some support for that. Any manufacturer can end the warranty and not cover you under a warranty - if at purchase the documentation that outlines the warranty states that - which the Land Rover one does; further in the dealer reminder note the references to the exceptions are highlighted and they are plainly there. To take them to court you will have to demonstrate some things: 1) That they are not adhering to the stated warranty (well you cant do that because of what the warranty states) 2) That the Statutory rights under the market you bought the car have been breached and the best but trickiest one 3) That the car was not fit for the purpose in which it was intended and then apply the reasonable man test - so that in fitting a chip would be a reasonable thing that the owner could be expected to do and that the fitting of a chip then should not have caused this. NOT EASY, it would be if it was a roof rack as LR sell them and fit them, so one could reasonable be expected to purchase and fit a rack and the car should have one thus it would be reasonable to have one and it fitted. Consumer direct, the motor retails association (or whatever its called) have some very clear information - but they have confirmed the above for me. The biggest one will be the warranty wording - if it doesn’t say you can you can expect cover (basically) Your other stumbling block is you will need to prove the damage to the car WASNT from the chip and that you dont have to have a warranty with a car. So mate - your argument based on Audi tyres and chipping wouldn’t wash - sorry Where you would have won on this is the fraud and deception by the dealers - and not knowing Audi’s warranty or the date it is feasible that chipping wasn’t covered or explicit. LR have been very clear on this one. Mike |
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5th Aug 2008 9:08pm |
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| chalky Member Since: 09 May 2008 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 483
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I cant see how any of the above could proved !
i may be wrong and Pete may be able to clarify this matter however in some "not all and not most" But some cases and if done correctly re writing the EMS "Not Chipping" would be of no detriment to your engine at all and "Could" improve the longevity of the unit ! "if done properly" Obviously not true in all cases as holding onto "BOOST" over fueling "Too Rich Too Lean" will adversely effect the engine ! my DEFENDER has had its engine management system re-mapped ! i know that the dealers would find it dificult to prove otherwise ! maybe they can tell how high the engine has been revved ? how wide open the throttle has been ? how fast the vehicle has been driven ? Boost pressure ? and apparently even the fuel consumption ? but done properly and not piggy backed by another box ! then its gonna be hard to prove ! Mine has not been mapped for speed it has been mapped to increase torque low down ! It imediately increased fuel consumption and driveability ! i hear what your saying with the stipulations however if my DEFENDER packs up and needs warranty work its gonna be a thick skin and a pair of ear defenders my dealers gonna need not get out clauses written into paperwork ! My last TD5 was fitted from new with a re mapped crap box from a MAIN DEALER ! They installed it ! Figure that one out ? How do they get out of that one ? DEFENDER XS CSW 08 TONGA GREEN |
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5th Aug 2008 10:01pm |
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| bell-auto-services Member Since: 08 Jul 2007 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2232 
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Here is some info that will help people make there decisions on what the dealer can or can not do regarding traces left.
I must say that the information i give and provide here is what ive gained for my educational purposes only. I will start and try and explane just some of the developement work i have personaly done to this car and its conrtol units. Then give you some thaughts at the end of my personal conclutions. The instrument cluster in this car stores a weird and wonderfull range of data from tyre size, fuel tank quantity in litres, saudi speed limiter beeps down to the basics like the actual mileage stored in KM and the trip counter just to mention some. It also is the cars master CAN central communications module. Here is a picture of a dash i took apart at 300miles to disassemble the code stored and find out what exactly it was doing even down to the mileage algorithm which incedently was far to easy to work out if LR are reading 
 Click image to enlarge The engine ecu also stores some critical data like chassis number, injector codes, fault codes, programming history etc etc. See pics Click image to enlarge
I have personaly removed read and analyzed the 896 KB (917,504 bytes) of data from the ST10F276 processer that has 144 pins spread out over 4 sides and is surface mount solderd to the circuit board. Then to boot swallowed the PDF on how the chip works to understand it all. http://www.bellautoservices.co.uk/Puma-pic...manual.pdf Then made numerious tests on sensors and the ecu of the car with a oscilloscope collecting data and teaching my self on how this beast is working. Click image to enlarge So all in all i recon i have quite a good understanding on the workings of the electronics of this car and what its capeable of and not capeable of etc etc. 
These are only just some of the simlper tests ive done with this car ive delved far more deeply in the workings which i prefer not to comment on for security issues for me and landrover
Here is my conclution knowing what i know about these cars electronics. First ill say that on ANY make or model of car if the engine control unit had been mapped/tunned i can tell in a matter of 5 mins using a range of tools from a simple volt meter to a oscilloscope just to name some. I would use this collective data determine if the car is standard or not, knowing what the standard measurements are supposed to read for fuel pressure boost duration etc etc. Weather your local dealer knows what is correct or not is a question i can not answer TBH very unlikley but possibile.
So i would advise if any one is concerned about warranty or a particular party knowing there car is mapped or tuned then may be a option for you is to return it to standard first ordont haveit tuned in the first place. The way some tools work when programming the ecu it does it in such a way that it may store a "Marker" or "Program record" in the ecu when a programming attempt is made or completed. This is a fast and easy way for the dealers to see if the car is tuned or not by looking at the cars history and working out if data seen is genuine, or done after by a third party or non dealer. If cars are left tuned with ANY also inc my tools it is tracable if looked for correctly by a person who knows what there doing and looking for. This goes for ANY make or model or car van truck etc etc Which why some tools like my new BAS remap switch is good because after its use it DONT leave a trace marker when the car is tuned or returned back to standard so are less tracable when used correctly with the correct software.
Because you keep this tool it gives you the customer the choice to have the car standard or tuned when ever you wish , it also gives a basic engine diagnostic tool for your car in the same package. I hope that all makes sence and gives you some insite on how the puma works cos i dont do big posts normaly because my brain cant think that hard for that long hehehe. Regards Pete PS i always advise you tell your insurance company of any modifications done to your car, and if dealer warranty is a issue then dont have modifications done Last edited by bell-auto-services on 5th Aug 2008 11:02pm. Edited 10 times in total |
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5th Aug 2008 10:16pm |
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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5035
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First by chipped i mean reprogrammed ECU so not pop out a chip or plug in a box.
Second - yes some dealers do do it, but as land rover technical directive states - the owner should take their claim up with the provider of the remap - eg: warranty on the remapper - and i can see how there would be a case there. But the fundamental point - this is a dealer fit NOT and LR modification or approved addition. Dont get me wrong, im likely to have it done myself outside of warranty - one thing ive learnt; you can shout at the dealer for many reasons, but if they don’t want to play you will still be stuffed. I dont know how it knows - i do know (i have seen this at Gaydon) that they can replay the engine stats at land rover and see how the car is driven and used - maybe this is the key to showing how the car was and if it was chipped I also know LR do some serious R&D into engine related things and seeing this (first hand over many years and as late as a few months ago) there is something to be said about their turnout (although why the speed limiter!?) The way the engine management works considers (to name a few): Environment Issues MPG Fuel Quality Engine Longevity Longevity of components Drive by noise Abuse and poor servicing. The fact remains - if it aint what it was designed for by the manufacturer then it is a modification (i hope insurance is notified) and they then absolve themselves as written - if LR dont pay the dealer wont. Mike |
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5th Aug 2008 10:22pm |
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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5035
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I do just want to say (for the record if nothing else) i have a lot of time for pete just through the times ive spoken via PM and how helpful he is.
The info ive put her isnt to be detremental or any other reason (im likely to have the remap myself as stated) i just think its a good learning for me and pass on what i have picked up One other thing - big engine or drive train failures go back to LR and they test it - so anything missed by the dealer or not known wont be by the test centre. wow a short post from me  Mike |
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5th Aug 2008 10:27pm |
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| bell-auto-services Member Since: 08 Jul 2007 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2232
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Thanks mse for your comments, i also agree it is also good to read other members thaughts and info its good brain food lol. Serious tho this is what good forums are for a good chat with other members giving there thaughts and opinions and info on things they do. Pete |
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5th Aug 2008 10:33pm |
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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5035
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its the turth - and your comments are something i really like about this forum Mike
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5th Aug 2008 10:38pm |
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| chalky Member Since: 09 May 2008 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 483
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agreed !
I too use this forum as massive brain drain and I take note of all comments made and then make my own decisions. As with you mse I take interest in Reading Petes posts including the one above ! I,ll continue to enjoy the improved driveability and MPG and as with most things I guess time will tell ! Just one thing pete and this may need a seperate post ? What panel filters are compatable for air flow. Or am I better with the standard element ? DEFENDER XS CSW 08 TONGA GREEN |
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5th Aug 2008 11:36pm |
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| solmanic Member Since: 16 Aug 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 191  
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That info on the instrument cluster electrics was fascinating - thanks Pete! 2007 Defender 110
1970 Alfa Romeo 1750GTV |
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6th Aug 2008 4:30am |
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| bell-auto-services Member Since: 08 Jul 2007 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2232
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The panal filter that is cuttently compatable with the puma is the ITG filter, if fitted corretly then in theory you should not have problems at all.
In SOME cases the oi from the filter has contaminated the maf and caused damage, but this is because itsnot fitted correctly. In very few other cases the filter has given a air flow fault for yet un known reasons. The fault listed is words to the effec of , aif flow circuit ok but out of range. Personaly leave it standard change it more often. Regards Pete |
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6th Aug 2008 7:51am |
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