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blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17417

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

digger2 wrote:
the pressure relief valve is part no LR006866 and the fuel metering valve is LR009837 the valve is on the back of the high pressure pump might be worth removing and cleaning out

Digger, thanks for the part numbers. I will clean the VCV on the pump as a next step (whatever happens it can't make things worse!). I am failry sure that the PRV is actually OK and the fault code was caused by the presence of air, rather than leakage. On the whole the fuel rail pressures seem to be about what I'd expect.

29th Nov 2013 6:26pm

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

I see you have the latest version of vehicle explorer, did you also update the modules on the MSV?

I would put the OEM fuel file back on before redoing the learn procedures with the latest updated modules on the tool. This would then give you a base line to start with on the electronic side. Next thing would be to unplug and use electrical contact cleaner on all the engine sensors, MAF, MAP, CHT, CKP, CMP, Injector harness, Turbo Modulator, fuel rail sensor, VCV and pump temp sensor,TPS and clutch switch, and at the same time do a visual inspection of the sensors harnesses back to the EMS. And don't forget to do the EGR plug as well even though it has been bypassed there could be spurious signals getting back to the EMS? I would then remove the MAF,and MAP sensors and clean them in carburettor cleaner. I would then remove the head cover and take a note of each injectors hex code as well as checking the injector harness and a visual check of the injector seats for any signs of a leak. And as the cover is off visually check the plumbing back to the pump for leaks not visible when the cover is on. Remove the VCV and clean it, you may find a white calcification coating the interior of the VCV which will need to be chipped off. Then check the injector grades on vehicle explorer match up to the hex codes on the injectors fitted. Once you are happy that everything appears ok redo the learn procedures.Then do a live data session to look at what the engine was doing, rail pressure, rail temp, boost, CHT, MAF g/sec, MAP pressure and temp and based on that information it would give you a better idea as to where the problem lies.
I have left the LP side of the fuel system out of the equation as you have already carried out all the things that I would do except for hand bleeding the fuel lines to the fuel pump to check for contamination between the filter housing and the pump. As you don't have a bleed tool you can borrow mine if you wish? If you want to borrow it send me your address and I will get it into the post tomorrow, just post it back to me when your finished.

29th Nov 2013 7:07pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey

I know it's unlikely you've had two problems simultaneously but have you started looking for other issues.......
Just read lorrymans post (I started writing this earlier) and he’s mentioned what I was going to suggest injectors and sensors and cleaning of connectors (I don’t pretend to be nearly as knowledgeable) but having read on here before of injectors becoming loose it's got to be worth a look.

As before the very best of luck......these defenders can be very testing at times.

29th Nov 2013 8:07pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17417

Lorryman, you are not only a fount of knowledge but also a true gent, I will pm you. Very many thanks.

Caterham, it is now starting to dawn on me that maybe it wasn't a fuel problem originally, but a different problem which just happened to cause me to find the contaminated fuel!

29th Nov 2013 10:13pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

blackwolf, I've no idea if the following items could cause the issues you're experiencing however I have my suspicions that the maf and / or map sensors giving the wrong data will cause the 'picking' sound referred to. worst case scenario could they cause the stalling etc?

when I've cleaned the sensors I'm sure they've had short lived improvements.

so is there anyway you can swap them with someone else as a test or can you confirm they are functional?

potentially something that could be done very easily and therefore one less thing to consider.

....if nothing else it gets your post back at the top for someone else to review and hopefully provide the answer you need?

good luck.

just thought. you happy the egr is operating right......seem to recall the local LR service manager mentioning if the egr was open it wouldn't even start.....

ps. what you're experiencing so sounds like what I've got, but mine seems like a very mild version of.

30th Nov 2013 9:31pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17417

I have more or less convinced myself now that the contam fuel is a red herring and not the real problem! I now think that it's something else, and because I found the bioslime in the tank and that could be the cause, i convinced myself that that must be the cause. My fuel and filter must be some of the cleanest in the country and yet I still have the problem, ergo the problem isn't the fuel.

When I get the chance next week I will be cleaning all the connectors and taking a very close look at the MAF sensor.

I will keep you all posted.

PS my EGR is disabled in the map I am running but the symptoms are very EGR-ish. One reason I haven't tried the original map is because it's a year since my EGR last tried to work and it may have seized by now.

30th Nov 2013 9:46pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

best of luck. I always think its best to check out all the simple stuff first..... (probably says alot about me).

30th Nov 2013 9:50pm

Cuthbert

Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: Up North
Posts: 1535

Can we now determine that contaminated fuel isn't the prime issue here? Or are we all stumbling around in the dark searching for the real problem? I'm lost.

30th Nov 2013 9:53pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17417

Cuthbert, my current assessment is that :

1 - I had a problem the symptoms of which suggested fuel starvation.

2 - I found bioslime in my tank.

3 - I jumped to the conclusion that I had found the problem and spent considerable time and effort eradicating the infection. This hasn't however corrected the original fault.

Conclusion - the fault is caused by something else, and the slime was a distraction and was not actually causing the problem. Definitely worth eradicating though.

Moral of the story - don't jump to conclusions!

1st Dec 2013 11:27am

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

does any know if a faulty MAF could cause an engine to stall as experienced by blackwolf?

1st Dec 2013 11:28am

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

The MAP is more likely to cause issues than the MAF sensor. One of the reasons why you know your MAF is on its way out is an increase in fuel consumption or checking the flow rate with a scan tool. If the MAP/T was failing it would show up with engine running issues. Remember the MAP/T (Manifold Absolute Pressure/Temperature) is also a temp gauge telling the EMS the temperature of the intake air from the intercooler

Instead of writing it all up again here is a post which talks about the MAP/T sensor.

Lorryman100 wrote:

The MAP/T sensor will show the temp of the air entering the intake manifold and the EMS will base the temps received on values/strategies stored within the fuelling file, so if the temp read at the MAP/T sensor was too high the EMS would drop boost and restrict rail pressure to safeguard the engine. To the driver it would seem as if the Puma has went into limp mode or the throttle was not responding. So if the Puma went into limp mode when towing a heavy load, high ambient air temp, altitude etc or a combination off them all resulting in a lack of power/boost etc and the CHT was below 105C then the cooling system is doing its job. Then we can talk theory and move onto the thermal transfer rate of the intercooler, the intercoolers heat absorption rate, Intercoolers flow rate in lb/min, intercoolers BTU/min, Turbo intake temperature, Turbo outlet temperature, pressure drop and a few other tedious calculations all to get to the point that at extreme conditions the oem intercooler isn't up to the job and a larger intercooler would solve a lot of the issues Puma drivers (IMHO) have when in hot climates towing heavy loads etc.

Mongolia, if it is definitely not a cooling issue (CHT, Coolant loss etc) have a read of the Adiabatic Processes and use the Turbo Outlet Temperature Calculator and the Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator to determine if your oem set up is up to the conditions and what would be required in a new intercooler to meet your requirements.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-adiabat1.htm

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm

Just my tuppence worth. Thumbs Up

1st Dec 2013 11:44am

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

Lorryman,

thank you very much. I've thought about the MAF and MAP replacement for far too long. this has now given me the kick up the jacksie I needed.

just a question of how quick I can get my hands on them and from where?

1st Dec 2013 11:49am

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

blackwolf

this could be a complete red herring but I've just swapped my map(not maf) sensor (from ford as it was a bit cheaper) and the early signs are looking very good. I'd suggest at the least giving a clean but I'm not convinced that wont damage it but see if you can't borrow one and see if it makes any difference?

I seemed to thinking cleaning mine made a short term difference then started to assume it was just in my head ?

I presume you've made no further progress yet?

3rd Dec 2013 10:45am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17417

Great minds think alike! Last night I whipped out the MAF and MAPT sensors and the MAPT had more gunge on it than you'd find in a smoker's lung - I couldn't actually even see the sensor bulb! I've given it a good clean for now and will refit tonight.

3rd Dec 2013 2:11pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17417

... And it's made absolutely no difference!

3rd Dec 2013 7:55pm

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