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| Advanced Factors Site Sponsor Member Since: 06 Jun 2013 Location: Southampton Posts: 178   
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Yes we do, let me know before you set off though just in case someone buys them all
 Paul Redding
+44 (0)23 8052 2760 www.advancedfactors.co.uk Site Sponsor for Aftermarket Parts |
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21st Nov 2013 2:51pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298  
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From what you say all pipes cleaned?
Have you tried any fuel cleaner / running it with fuel cleaner? If it were me I'd be tempted to try some biocides / cleaner and then another filter??? Good luck. Please keep us posted as my grin has reduced very slightly recently however I'm just so happy to be 99% sure of where my problem lies / lied. |
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23rd Nov 2013 2:10pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17417 
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I wasn't able to flush the pipes from the filter to the engine or from the engine back to the tank, so there may be crud from there. However it would either have had to get through the filter or 'grown' in situ and I would have hoped either was unlikely. But something is still wrong, dammit!
I will leave it with biocide for the rest of the weekend and fit my fourth (and last) filter on Monday and see what happens. |
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23rd Nov 2013 2:26pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298
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although I suspect its very unlikely especially if its not been sat idle for any length of time I would have though microscopic bacteria that the 'growth' has originated from could indeed make it through the filter.
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23rd Nov 2013 2:45pm |
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| jimbob7 Member Since: 06 Jul 2013 Location: uk Posts: 2055 |
This is a bit more info for your research,I guess if anyone if anyone knows about biocide its boat owners.
http://www.marine16.co.uk/acatalog/diesel_bug_pbo_test1.pdf Pov.spec,ftw. 2006, 110,TD5. |
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23rd Nov 2013 3:42pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298
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blackwolf.
hopefully this is completely unrelated but just wondering if you've used 2SO in the past and or Redex? |
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25th Nov 2013 9:08pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17417
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Caterham, I have in the past used 2SO but not for at least a year. 95% of my fuel comes through three filling stations (two of which are Shell, and one ESSO) and all have very high throughputs. It is unlikely that the contamination came from any of these and it is more likely that it is "home grown".
An update for anyone interested: Over the weekend (while not using the Defender) I had been pondering about the problem and reasoned that it was quite possible that overnight on Friday, when the tank was completely empty and full of damp atmospheric air, more microbes had grown (it seems that a single cell can grow to an 11kg biomass in 24hrs if conditions are right). Either that, or there had been a lump of slime which I had missed during the cleanup. I was also in a situation when all my jerrycans were filled with the fuel from Friday, and the tank was full to the brim, so I couldn't drain it again even if I wanted to. So I figured that the best thing was to go for a run to a location where I knew I could usefully deposit the fuel from Friday (after biociding it) to free up the cans, use some of the fuel in the tank, and see how often the filter was blocking up. So initially I drained the filter I fitted on Saturday, which had by then done some 10 miles since the tank was filled and the filter was new. It was horrible! Several blank lumps, and generally cloudy appearance. After draining, and armed with draining equipment and new filters I set off. In all I did approx 110 miles. Every 15 or so miles the tell-tale hesitation on acceleration would appear, so I'd stop, drain about 1/2 pint from the filter, and set off again. Each time full performance would be restored for a while, then drop off again. After about 60 miles the intervals became shorter, so I fitted a new filter and then carried on as before. At each stop, the fuel from the filter looked fairly clean, but on very close inspection was full of tiny black particles (microbes), which evidently do not pass through a 5 micron filter (it seems the most fuel polishers use a 5 micron filter to get them out). So my conclusion at present is that I now have a tankful of dead microbes in suspecsion which won't pass throug the filter. I guess eventually the vehicle's filter will remove them all, but it is a very slow and tedious process. I have now booked a fuel polisher to come tomorrow to "polish" the fuel in the tank to get the bulk of these out, after which we'll see what happens and i will report in due course! I would certainly agree with those who say that it is difficult to be rid of the bug! It is, incidentally really useful having a tank breather extended into the rear body, because you can blow into it to purge the filter! Also, in case it is of interest to others, the syptoms of a blocked filter, in the order that they become manifest, are:- 1) hesitation on throttle opening. Usually the first sign, most noticeable when changing gear up, as there is a lurch when you come off the clutch because the enging revs haven't picked up. 2) rough idle, sometime stalling when really blocked. 3) Increased injector rattle especially at low speeds. Draining a cup of fuel from the filter generally cures all of these instantly, at least for a short time. (Editted for spelling.) |
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26th Nov 2013 11:36am |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298
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How did you you get on with Mr polisher?
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27th Nov 2013 6:27pm |
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| digger2 Member Since: 28 Jul 2012 Location: west yorkshire Posts: 25
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p0089 comes up on transits as well don't know if this helps but we usualy replace the imv on the back of the fuel pump and the fuel pressure relief valve on the end of the fuel rail. You could always try cleaning the imv out its held in by 2 screws .
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27th Nov 2013 9:52pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17417
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Well Mr Polisher spent 2 hours filtering my (supposedly clean) fuel and removed a substantial amount of crud, quite enough to cause poor running. After fitting another new filter the Defender started easily and idled smoothly until warm. By this time sadly it was dark and rush-hour so I wasn't able to do more than run round the block a couple of times.
Although it seemed to be better, it isn't right - there's still hesitation on acceleration and intermittent rough idle. I do also now have codes P268B, P167B, and P0089 come up. The first two are pump relearn and injector relearn needed, so I'll try to do these tomorrow (might improve the running?) but P0089 points to the PCV (pressure control valve) on the end of the fuel rail, though the MIL isn't lit. The WSM includes a procedure for replacing this valve, but I'm sure I've read the it comes with the HP fuel rail now and isn't renewable separately. Anyone know? Anyone changed this? Clearly the next step is to do the pump and injector relearns, then see if the P0089 clears, then go for a test drive. Unfortunately it's likely to be next week before I can do this due to other commitments. I will update this thread as soon as there is any progress, in the meantime does anyone have any guidance on how to do the pump and injector relearn using BBS MSV1? I haven't done this before, I presume it's done with the engine running? |
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27th Nov 2013 10:50pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17417
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Well, I managed to carry out the pump and injector relearn this afternoon and initially there seemed to be a significant improvement. All faults cleared ok too, and didn't immediately reoccur.
With the engine warm, idling well, and no faults I went for a short test drive. For the first half mile it was great, but then again it started to run rough, and to refuse to pick up when the pedal is pressed (ease off to change up, press the accelerator, and it stays on tickover. There are however no fault codes of any kind. 
I am rather stumped now and not sure what to do next. |
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29th Nov 2013 4:42pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
I just seen your pm BW.
 As you have done the learns did you do it on the OEM fuelling file or the remap? And did you check the hex codes on the individual injectors matched the hex numbers on pilot correction learn? The fuel pump learn is catered more towards fuel pump replacement. The pilot correction learn can take a few ignition/driving cycles for the EMS to get to the correct settings. The fuel rail has a pressure limiting valve which is basically a ball bearing crimped into place within a housing and is designed to let go above a certain pressure to safeguard the HP side. If this has gone you may get a rattle from the housing and yes it is a serviceable part. |
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29th Nov 2013 5:01pm |
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| digger2 Member Since: 28 Jul 2012 Location: west yorkshire Posts: 25
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the pressure relief valve is part no LR006866 and the fuel metering valve is LR009837 the valve is on the back of the high pressure pump might be worth removing and cleaning out
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29th Nov 2013 5:23pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17417
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Lorryman, everything I've done sofar has been done with the BAS map still on, not the OEM map, and that includes the test drives. I haven't yet tried putting the original map back on, but that day will come especially since it looks increasingly likely that the dealer is going to have to be paid a visit.
I am not totally convinced that either relearn worked properly since (as always) my Faultmate MSV seems to behave oddly at times and give peculiar messages! As far as I can tell, this is just the way that BBS's products are, but it doesn't provide reassurance (any more than the many spelling errors on the user interface pages). For example, when I click on the "pump replacement" button, the next screen I see is this:-  Click image to enlarge This isn't the sort of confirmation message that a quality software product displays and I don't know what it means! However, when you click continue the engine (on tickover) gives a great burp then settles down and runs more smoothly afterwards, and the P268B fault code can be cleared, so I have to assume that it has triggered a pump learning cycle. Similarly, the first time I did the fuel injector learn, following the instructions displayed by Faultmate (sadly without screenshots), after starting the engine the system displayed a message "waiting for engine to warm up, current read temperature is 50C". 30 minutes later the temp gauge was showing normal, but Faultmate was still displaying the same message and had done nothing, so I killed the process and started again. This time it got further and then gave me a message "unable to pass ECM access security" and blanked the screen when I clicked continue, however just when I was about to stop the engine it started to cycle through different speeds and rail pressures, and do other autonomous things, which I imagine means that it did do the learn. I let it run for ten minutes after it stopped doing autonomous things and it seemed smoother afterwards. (Sadly this random behaviour is what I have come to expect from my Faultmate MSV1, and I cannot in honesty say that I have been impressed with the product quality nor the support from BBS. I don't know if later products are better, I hope so). The hex codes for the injectors are correct, and the injectors are original. It didn't ask me to reinput them during the learn though, would you expect it to? There was no prompt for any user intersction at all during the injector learn cycle. I did wonder if the P0089 code I had twice was due to a fault with the pressure relief valve, but the fault has cleared and as yet hasn't returned. Transit documentation seems to suggest that this code can occur if there is air in the fuel system, although the Defender manual makes no mention of this. I don't know how leakage of this valve is actually detected by the ECM - the only option seems to be if there are unexpected pressure fluctuations picked up by the the rail pressure sensor, but there are several scenarios other than the valve that might cause this. I am also puzzled since the manual states that leakage of the PRV will trigger the MIL, but I didn't get the MIL with my P0089. All rather odd! I haven't had any fault codes other than the P0089 (PRV leakage), the P167B (injector learn not completed), and P268B (pump learn not completed). Having (possibly) carried out the "learns" and cleared the faults, they haven't come back. So as things stand, after my initial problem the tank has been emptied and cleaned, and the original fuel disposed of. The breather has been replaced and rerouted into the inside of the body. The fuel lines between the tank and filter head have been flushed, the tank has been refilled with new diesel. When this didn't solve the problem the (new) diesel has been polished, the tank and lines flushed again, and it is now on its fifth filter in two weeks. Pump and Injector calibration has been carried out, but still it doesn't run right! I am sorry to have to admit that it is now beginning to get me down! Sofar I haven't interfered with anything on the engine side of the filter, since it appears that the microbes won't pass the filter element so therefore there logically shouldn't be any contaminants forward of the filter. I also haven't bled anything up the front, since I don't have the absurdly-priced bleeding tool, and I have been working on the assumption that provided that the filters are prefilled there will never be sufficient air in the system to upset the pump (the manual maes it clear that the system can cope with small amounts of air in the LP circuit since there is an air-bleed valve in the filter head for purging air from the filter). The vehicle starts well, runs OK some of the time, then refuses to rev and hunts (sometimes stalling) on idle, but there are no error codes. I don't see why there would be any air leaks in the fuel system, but what would happen if there were? At the moment the only ideas I have for moving this forwards are (a) to remove and clean the VCV from the pump, (b) to drain all the biocide-treated fuel from the tank again and replace it with new fresh untreated diesel, and (c) to see if it I can get the vehicle to run long enough to get it to a main dealer. I am running out of ideas, and starting to wonder if I have an ECM fault or similar. Any advice or suggestions would be gratefully received! |
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29th Nov 2013 6:22pm |
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