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ClaireWright



Member Since: 12 Oct 2012
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 609

United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Keswick Green
roll cage
Im looking at getting an internal roll cage,my puma has seats in back too...what should I be looking at in terms of roll cage ?
Post #189103 27th Nov 2012 10:29pm
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davew



Member Since: 02 Jan 2012
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 888

England 1990 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Auto Rioja Red
You need to decide on the balance you need between "safety" and practicality.

The first problem you will hit is that it's not practical or desirable to have an internal roll cage in a Defender. There isn't room for the front part of the cage and the outrigger the front part of the cage would normally mount on is in front of the bulkhead.

Most roll cage designs for the Defender hard top are internal/external for this reason. The front part of the cage is external and that then links to an internal roll hoop and bracing bars.

Do you need to meet any specific regulations for the cage or is this "just" for peace of mind ?

If the latter you have a lot more flexibility in the cage design, in the former you may not have any choices. If you were, for example, to want to compete in ALRC events they have a much stricter (and in most cases bizarre) set of regulations compared to the cage that you would need to compete in an international spec rally/competition. If you're looking for a competition cage you need to comply with the regulations of that competition. The ALRC, for example, will not allow you to compete using a cage that is certified for use in International competition.

If it's for peace of mind then the internal roll over hoop could be built with removable diagonal bracing and back stays to accommodate the rear seats. You could also get a roll hoop built with rear stays outside the load bed which would comply with international rally regulations. http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/
Post #189121 27th Nov 2012 11:43pm
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adiep



Member Since: 18 Nov 2012
Location: Gibraltar
Posts: 204

Gibraltar 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Alpine White
davew wrote:
You need to decide on the balance you need between "safety" and practicality.

The first problem you will hit is that it's not practical or desirable to have an internal roll cage in a Defender. There isn't room for the front part of the cage and the outrigger the front part of the cage would normally mount on is in front of the bulkhead.

Most roll cage designs for the Defender hard top are internal/external for this reason. The front part of the cage is external and that then links to an internal roll hoop and bracing bars.

Do you need to meet any specific regulations for the cage or is this "just" for peace of mind ?

If the latter you have a lot more flexibility in the cage design, in the former you may not have any choices. If you were, for example, to want to compete in ALRC events they have a much stricter (and in most cases bizarre) set of regulations compared to the cage that you would need to compete in an international spec rally/competition. If you're looking for a competition cage you need to comply with the regulations of that competition. The ALRC, for example, will not allow you to compete using a cage that is certified for use in International competition.

If it's for peace of mind then the internal roll over hoop could be built with removable diagonal bracing and back stays to accommodate the rear seats. You could also get a roll hoop built with rear stays outside the load bed which would comply with international rally regulations.


Seems odd you say that internal dont work for defenders, there are a few for sale and reading reports from owners they do seem to be perfectly ok.

I cannot use an external, it wont fit my garage door, so internal will be my only option.
Post #189939 30th Nov 2012 9:41pm
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davew



Member Since: 02 Jan 2012
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 888

England 1990 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Auto Rioja Red
You can fit a fully internal roll cage into anything, it's just a real PITA in a Defender to fit the front hoop internally which is why most cages use an external front hoop with an internal rear hoop and stays.

I'd be interested to see an internal roll cage fitted to a Defender as I've never seen one other than those where they've used a fabricated bulkhead where the front hoop replaces the bulkhead and the windscreen is mounted directly into it.

To fit an internal front hoop to a standard Defender you'd need to modify/cut away the ends of the dashboard, fabricate new outriggers and move the fuel tank (on pre TD5 90s). You'd need to remove/relocate the rear view mirror, the sun visors and the interior light and you would no longer be able to remove the roof due to lack of access and access to the windscreen fitting brackets would be "interesting" potentially preventing removal of the windscreen surround and brackets too. It'd be easier to make the garage door bigger...

Obviously the rear hoop and stays are normally internal but that's not a roll cage which is what the OP was asking about. If you just want a roll hoop (half cage) then that can be fully internal and normally is. http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/
Post #189965 30th Nov 2012 11:51pm
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adiep



Member Since: 18 Nov 2012
Location: Gibraltar
Posts: 204

Gibraltar 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Alpine White
davew wrote:
You can fit a fully internal roll cage into anything, it's just a real PITA in a Defender to fit the front hoop internally which is why most cages use an external front hoop with an internal rear hoop and stays.

I'd be interested to see an internal roll cage fitted to a Defender as I've never seen one other than those where they've used a fabricated bulkhead where the front hoop replaces the bulkhead and the windscreen is mounted directly into it.

To fit an internal front hoop to a standard Defender you'd need to modify/cut away the ends of the dashboard, fabricate new outriggers and move the fuel tank (on pre TD5 90s). You'd need to remove/relocate the rear view mirror, the sun visors and the interior light and you would no longer be able to remove the roof due to lack of access and access to the windscreen fitting brackets would be "interesting" potentially preventing removal of the windscreen surround and brackets too. It'd be easier to make the garage door bigger...

Obviously the rear hoop and stays are normally internal but that's not a roll cage which is what the OP was asking about. If you just want a roll hoop (half cage) then that can be fully internal and normally is.


ah yes, the very front part can be external, as the front of the defender if lower then passenger roof area. i was also referring to internal from the front seat backwards, not including windscreen. i guess its a mixture of external and internal, but looks to me as thought the internal alone will give good protection for driver and rear passengers, so should be enough
Post #189976 1st Dec 2012 5:52am
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davew



Member Since: 02 Jan 2012
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 888

England 1990 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Auto Rioja Red
adiep wrote:

ah yes, the very front part can be external, as the front of the defender if lower then passenger roof area. i was also referring to internal from the front seat backwards, not including windscreen. i guess its a mixture of external and internal, but looks to me as thought the internal alone will give good protection for driver and rear passengers, so should be enough


I think it's down to terminology. A roll cage is a "cage", something that completely surrounds the occupants. A single hoop behind the front seats isn't a roll cage, that would be termed a roll bar or sometimes a "half cage". A roll bar will offer good protection, especially when compared with the standard roof. Due to the way Defenders normally roll a roll bar will provide a safe zone below a line drawn between the top of the roll bar and the leading edge of the bonnet, assuming the roll bar maintains it's integrity. Compared to a standard vehicle where there is nothing above the body capping that is likely to remain in position in a roll. It's for that reason that military HT Land Rovers have a roll bar as standard that is braced entirely into the back body. http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/
Post #189998 1st Dec 2012 9:59am
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pjh



Member Since: 22 Nov 2010
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 126

United Kingdom 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Orkney Grey
Hi Claire,

We went for a Safety Devices L148 cage that protects the passenger 'cell', with an external front hoop and internal B & C hoops. Well made and expertly fitted by Foley's.

It gives everything we wanted without being too intrusive.

All the best,

Peter Defender 11MY USW
Post #192221 9th Dec 2012 11:13pm
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adiep



Member Since: 18 Nov 2012
Location: Gibraltar
Posts: 204

Gibraltar 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Alpine White
pjh wrote:
Hi Claire,

We went for a Safety Devices L148 cage that protects the passenger 'cell', with an external front hoop and internal B & C hoops. Well made and expertly fitted by Foley's.

It gives everything we wanted without being too intrusive.

All the best,

Peter


Hi pjh, do you mind saying how much it costed for that? Its the option I am interested in.
Post #192230 10th Dec 2012 5:51am
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pouf



Member Since: 05 Aug 2010
Location: Athens
Posts: 456

Greece 2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Zermatt Silver
I have L-148 too

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic12989.html

You can have only the internal cage, it is easy to do it yourself www.newfoundland.gr
Post #192238 10th Dec 2012 7:22am
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adiep



Member Since: 18 Nov 2012
Location: Gibraltar
Posts: 204

Gibraltar 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Alpine White
pouf wrote:
I have L-148 too

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic12989.html

You can have only the internal cage, it is easy to do it yourself


Wow. What a great job Thumbs Up Do you think its worth doing the roll cage at the same time as sound proofing? Or can they easily e done as separate jobs?
Post #192239 10th Dec 2012 7:28am
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pouf



Member Since: 05 Aug 2010
Location: Athens
Posts: 456

Greece 2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Zermatt Silver
They can be separate jobs but it is double work.
And i think roof sound proofing would be a little bit difficult www.newfoundland.gr
Post #192245 10th Dec 2012 7:49am
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adiep



Member Since: 18 Nov 2012
Location: Gibraltar
Posts: 204

Gibraltar 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Alpine White
pouf wrote:
They can be separate jobs but it is double work.
And i think roof sound proofing would be a little bit difficult


has the roof sound proofing helped much?
Post #192246 10th Dec 2012 7:55am
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pouf



Member Since: 05 Aug 2010
Location: Athens
Posts: 456

Greece 2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Zermatt Silver
About sound i think yes. About hot i will inform you this summer Laughing www.newfoundland.gr
Post #192250 10th Dec 2012 8:18am
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