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| Lishlandy Member Since: 26 Oct 2011 Location: High Wycombe Posts: 941   
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I think we should be careful of the generalisation of forum sponsors. It is unjust as there are many individuals who happen to sponsor the forum that offer a wealth of knowledge freely to this site. A lot of this bulks up the credibility of the posts that are present on this forum and give people like myself who aren't mechanically minded the confidence to undertake often small adjustments to our vehicles with confidence, preserving that feel good factor of owning One of these epic vehicles. You can't buy that from their websites.
Yes some people (including myself) get a bit carried away but then I believe that it is a small percentage of the postings within this forum and offers often a comical value to people's perceptions and understandings. My glass is half full. =================================== Steve 90 xs sw in Stonoway Grey - Sold 110 USW X-TECH |
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18th Nov 2012 9:54pm |
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| ZeDefender Member Since: 15 Sep 2011 Location: Munich Posts: 4731  
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Okay - here goes...
I am fine with dealer-sponsors on the forum, insofar as they pay to support the forum in order to peddle their wares (not forgetting that many are private members/fanatics anyway). I also benefit from information about those wares (albeit a bit one-sided) and discount if I take the bait. However, I also believe that if a dealer-sponsor is allowed to politely "push" a very expensive product on a public forum, I should be allowed to politely and publicly "push" back, and ask why it's so expensive. I would hope said sponsor would then go on to explain in detail why it was so expensive*. If his explanation was reasonable and well founded, I would applaud his excellent taste. If it was something like "it's just quality you pleb, but you wouldn't appreciate that, would you", I would assume he couldn't give any reasonable explanation and hope other members got the message too. It needn't go further that that! I am entitled to my opinion and others are entitled to ignore it. As for "expensive German metal" - Rammstein albums are quite cheap and more to my taste: 
*I'm pretty sure a good dealer thoroughly researches his goods before stocking them so he knows and can explain precisely what features make them more attractive vs. the opposition. p.s. for "his" above, please read "his/hers"  Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing... Last edited by ZeDefender on 18th Nov 2012 10:46pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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18th Nov 2012 10:32pm |
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| JJ Member Since: 18 May 2009 Location: Winchester Posts: 932  
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I would say that the in general I like this forum and appreciate the views put forward irrespective of whether I agree with them or not.
Most forumites are more than capable of spotting a "marketing post " and can choose to ignore it so it drops off the page quietly. Any one that wants to buy the emperors new clothes is free to do so and can wax lyrical about them, that is fine by me but in no way influences my purchasing decisions. Equally if a sponsors wants to exercise their free speech and slag the competition I will not be swayed by that. Only abusive or threatening posts should be blocked in my opinion. |
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18th Nov 2012 10:45pm |
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| wslr Member Since: 18 Jul 2010 Location: Wellington, Somerset Posts: 581
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I'm not a sponsor because it is too expensive. If I had to cover this sponsorship then I'd be pushing my products. I don't think you realise just how much it is.
Also, you've probably noticed none of the sponsors have commented. I doubt this is through embarrassment. More likely they feel they can't reply as they have been branded sponsor status and as such, have a hand tied behind their back. In short, they can't win. Personally, each to their own. Who cares if the product is cheap or expensive? I know who I trust and who I can buy from. If the quality and product are good, I would buy it. |
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18th Nov 2012 10:52pm |
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| ZeDefender Member Since: 15 Sep 2011 Location: Munich Posts: 4731
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but it would be nice if the sponsors are allowed to explain why a product is expensive - it may be quite relevant. To do so, they have to be asked and if a sponsor advertises publicly, questioning and discussion should also be public (otherwise a forum is useless). Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing... |
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18th Nov 2012 11:00pm |
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| Green Machine Member Since: 19 Nov 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1226 
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Agree entirely. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and, so long as it is inoffensive, they should be able to express it. We're all grown-ups and we can all make our own decisions. Some may argue that the forum sponsors are biased towards their own products - of course they are! They're trying to sell them, and what's more, they're paying for the privilege. I am not aware of any site sponsors that don't make a positive contribution to the forum, and many of them offer sound advice and knowledge to other forum members, as well as some good deals. Most of the time we all get along just fine! 2005 Td5 | 90 Station Wagon | Tonga Green |
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18th Nov 2012 11:07pm |
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| Killer90 Site Sponsor Member Since: 09 Oct 2011 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 6478 
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I do like quality and im pretty fussy when it comes to bits for my 90- The expensive German range i think we all figure is Entreq and Nak, yes the prices are quite a fair bit but trust me when i say this the quality is out of this world. I purchased a britpart stainless grill for my 90 i hated it in every way possible ( but this is me) i was honest when selling it and a forum member brought it from me and loves it. i have know gone on to purchase a grill/surround kit from Brendan which comes from Nak at almost 5 times the price of the britpart grill
 but wow is all i can say its finished so well and everything fits perfectly. I know bits seem alot and some stuff i dont agree with but quality in my eyes is a must especially on a land rover were nothing fits right  with the handfull of bits i sell through the forum im always willing to give advice as on many occasions when someone has asked for something i have gave honest advice and in some cases have turned them away from that certain product im trying to sell on. Cheap is not always the way but a bargain can always be had CSK Automotive
www.cskautomotive.co.uk Like us on Facebook - www.facebook.com/csklr Follow us on Instagram - @cskautomotive |
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18th Nov 2012 11:53pm |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816  
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... Clearly noticed that and a real loss of one of the best tech experts ever seen on here...  You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation.
http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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19th Nov 2012 3:26am |
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| ken Member Since: 18 Aug 2009 Location: Banging Birds with my bitches !! Posts: 4328
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I truly believe that it’s a testament to the members of this site that the only moderator is Martin on Defender2
Disco3 RRsnort ,BabyRR Freel2 & fullfatrr all require active moderation let’s keep it that way |
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19th Nov 2012 8:10am |
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| The Boy Member Since: 28 Aug 2008 Location: East Northants Posts: 1459 
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Well said.
Agree.
Again agree. I hardly post these days mostly because what has been written above, sad really. I have many products sold by some sponsors here, some are very good some not. I have a modest income and try to send it wisely so when a product turns out to be less than expected you can't say anything or else you get immediately jumped on in a big way.So if a member asks "is this a good product?" they will get 10 "yes it is fantastic and worth every penny" but nobody can post "well it for me was a waist of money because .....". I visit here less and less and mainly because it seems a forum run by the sponsors and their mates which is a real shame. Now that said I would like to say that some of the sponsors should not be tared with the same brush. I feel a little sorry for these guys as in my eyes they don't deserve it. Sorry if this upsets some of you but I rather feel I have nothing to lose any more. Boy |
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19th Nov 2012 8:59am |
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| mobilecentre Member Since: 05 Mar 2012 Location: Evesham Posts: 645
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My name is Tim and I am a recovering site sponsor
Yes it is very difficult to reply to this thread objectively and without fanning the flames I sell good value for money items some of which are expensive Wherever possible we try to source and manufacturer in the UK and do so for most of our brackets and metalwork. We also assemble all of our wiring kits in the UK. The majority of our lighting comes from the US through our choice over China. I try to help on as many topics as possible and admit if I feel one of our products would help then I will mention it. I am not a box shifter and actively get involed with every level possible of the product from design to physical installation in order to better understand it and help the customer. I sometimes get it wrong 
I really do not want to be tarred and feathered We have been involved with forums and sponsorship since 1996. |
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19th Nov 2012 9:11am |
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| MartinK Member Since: 02 Mar 2011 Location: Silverdale (Lancashire/Cumbria Border) Posts: 2665 
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Any my two-penneth...
IMHO any issues involving animosity with sponsors is very minor. It happens (probably slightly more than it should...), but it's a very small percentage of threads on here. Otherwise this is a fantastic forum for Puma (and to other Defenders), and I hope the relatively minor spats don't cause too much unrest in our community. For me personally, all my interactions with fellow forum members - personal and trade/sponsor - have been excellent. Some trade/forum sponsors (example's I've had dealings with: Brendan/Leeds, Defenderbits/Andrew, Dan/Duckworths) have been excellent, and have involved both great advice and competitive prices. And as jasong says "the sponsors pay for this forum"... Advice and help (and for sale/wanted) dealings with other fellow members have been awesome, and have increased the ownership value of my Defender...it's like one big club owning an icon
So - please let's keep the minor spats in context, and keep enjoying this forum "club" with all of it's helpful members. Defender "Puma" 2.4 110 County Utility (possibly the last of the 2.4's) |
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19th Nov 2012 9:16am |
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| RRUK Site Supporter Member Since: 31 Mar 2010 Location: Leicestershire Posts: 2025
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I agree, and I wrote a well thought out piece that was then deleted before anyone could read it. In essence it said this: The reaction of a sponsor to a forum member saying "that products is really expensive" should be a calm and considered one, and maybe, just maybe, offering an alternative product to the member, showing that he understands we all have different needs, requirements and budgets. It certainly should not be one of a condescending nature, slagging that person off because they clearly don't understand what an engineered product is and they have no taste and can't afford quality parts. It is NEVER about what you can afford, but what you are willing to pay. I could go out and buy a new Range Rover tomorrow if I wanted to, but I choose to buy them a few years old and SAVE money. I work Bloody hard for my money, unsociable hours, travelling the globe, so when I spend some of it on parts, I am very selective. For example, I personally don't see the advantage in me buying an Entreq mud flap bracket for £100 when I can buy a pair of OE ones with mudflaps for a quarter of the price, even though the Entreq unit is so well 'engineered' it will outlast my vehicle and my ownership of it, so it's just a waste of my hard earned disposable income. I am not keeping the vehicle for life. An OE one, with a coat of Hammerite or stone chip will last as long as I need it to, and if it did rust through I could then afford to replace it. The Entreq unit could also just as easily be ruined or damaged off road, so I see little point in paying more for something that I don't need to, no matter how amazing the quality and how nice the lettering on it. Just because that's MY way of thinking doesn't mean it applies to everyone sure, but if the person selling the expensive gear is a verbal bully towards me just because I express an opinion he doesn't like or agree with then that's wrong, and that person should be taken to task, and there should be no reason why we shouldn't all be made aware of their anti-social attitude. But then if that gets deleted from the forum before anyone else can comment, that is also wrong. Whilst I am fully aware that forums sometimes need sponsors to keep them going, the forum owner (i.e. Martin) needs to recognise who is a good sponsor and who isn't. It's not all about the money they pay, it's also about how they are perceived, what do forum members think of them, do they add value or detract from the perception of my forum to it's members. Since I spoke up, you should read some of the PMs I've had in support of standing up for myself, they make interesting reading and all say the same thing. I have merely highlighted a real issue that has been there for some time it would seem. A forum that is run by the Sponsors for the sponsors and their clique group is pointless. It's just a load of sycophantic Yes men, all slapping each others backs and crowing about their latest product. How boring is that? It's certainly not what I use a forum for. There are many great companies out there in the Land Rover arena who would make great sponsors, one of the best I've seen is Duckworths Parts. Dan offers all the forums some great deals and he is a pleasure to deal with. Sponsors like that are worth ten of the 'other type'. And guess what makes them a great company to deal with? Customer Service. I could go on and on, but having read everyone's comments it seems 95% of us feel the same. 2016 D4 HSE 1998 110 TUM HS FFR Hard Top XD WOLF 1982 Series 3 SWB Petrol |
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19th Nov 2012 9:18am |
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| Martin Site Admin Member Since: 02 Apr 2007 Location: Hook Norton Posts: 6609 
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Morning all.
Thank you all for your comments regarding the site and how it is run, and how site sponsors mix with forum members. It is a real shame that only raising a matter in public gets members to share their opinions, rather than contacting me with feedback so I can deal with issues as they happen. Those of you who have been around Defender2 or any of my other sites will know that it is not my policy to delete discussions at the drop of a hat - the thread in question which was the catalyst for this thread to be started was a genuine one-off case and if I may, I'd like to explain the course of action in that case. What actually happened was that a sponsor posted in their own forum that a new product was for sale. In amongst the questions regarding specification, etc, developed a (somewhat heated) discussion over pricing, which I felt was not appropriate in that thread. I split the thread out, renaming the pricing discussion "Aerial pricing discussion" and placing it in Off Topic as my perceived best fit. I'm sure a number of people saw the thread in this state: still in existence but split from a sponsor's listing. I then received a complaint, both via PM and on the public forum, that the thread appeared to make out one member as the instigator of the pricing discussion, when in fact (and unknown to me) this members comments were made in jest towards a good friend. Rather than start editing the thread and removing some members' comments and leaving others, which I hope you'll agree is not acceptable, I removed the thread from public view. With the benefit of everyone's hindsight there are no doubt a number of other options, but I took what I thought to be the best course of action at the time. Moving on from the singular case and onto the matter of the forum in general. Again, those of you who know this forum or my others will know that moderation is used extremely sparingly, with a bias towards tidiness rather than suppression. Messages are genuinely only removed when offensive or when a thread degenerates into pointless arguing. That this is still possible with the volume of messages and users is a huge credit to the membership, who by-and-large do get on well. I have absolutely no problem with the existence of threads discussing pricing of kit from sponsors. This has happened a number of times before, particularly when comparing sponsors' remap pricing to cheap eBay offerings, and these have all remained in place on the forum. This kind of feedback is important to sponsors, however I don't think it is best placed in immediate response to a sponsor listing a product for sale. This is in much the same way that public "spoiling" replies to For Sale posts aren't allowed. So there is absolutely no pressure from sponsors to remove threads or for me to protect their interests, I hope that they wish to sponsor and take part on Defender2 because they like the forum as it is, without a view to "getting their own way". I openly admit that I don't spend all day every day reading every new post on Defender2 - testament to its generally trouble-free atmosphere - would ask that, wherever possible, anyone who feels that posts or threads have overstepped the mark do take a few seconds to drop a report in so my attention is drawn to it. This helps address issues as they occur, rather than letting matters fester and resentment set in. We have a range of members on the forum from those building up brand new 110s and 130s into the ultimate expedition vehicle, through those using Pumas for work, to those with a Tdi or Td5 (or older) as a toy or project. This is no different in reality to, say, fullfatrr.com, comparing an early 2002 Range Rover owner to a prospective owner of a new 2013 model. All of these owners have different requirements and budgets, and I think it's important to realise that there will not always be agreement between everyone over what is the "best". Constructive discussion is definitely encouraged, but I see little point of bitter, argumentative posting and I hope most agree with this. I appreciate that there is a balance to be sought between the use of the site by its members and its sponsors, and this is not always so clear cut as "members here, sponsors here" as many sponsors are enthusiasts too. I've tried to improve matters from a few months ago by introducing the individual sponsors' forums which I hope has balanced the promotional activity by sponsors within the other forum areas. To make it clear, sponsors don't apply any pressure to have posts removed or discussions biased - I simply will not do it. Any decision to tidy the site is mine, and mine alone. I realise there are those who would prefer there to be no sponsorship activity on the site at all, and those who would be completely happy with an enormous list of sponsors promoting in every possible place. I would hope that this site maintains a healthy balance between the two. It could be very easy to attract extra sponsors by cutting the sponsorship rates to the floor and flood the forum with advertising, but that is not something I will do, so I hope that people therefore realise why the rates are what they are. There is absolutely no way that I can please everybody but I do, genuinely, try my very best and I am sorry if I've fallen short in some peoples' eyes. I'm not out to run a forum that people don't want to be a part of. Martin  1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top
2015 D90 XS SW |
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19th Nov 2012 10:16am |
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