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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20339  
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I do think that forum sponsors should tone down their product posting. After all forum users all know exactly where to find suppliers if they need them. I agree it's difficult to mention external companies without annoying forum sponsors just by simply mentioning them. Take my Devon 4x4 poll for example a while back. It's not down to the sole sponsors alone though occasionally general forum users can slate certain goods too. I try my best to advise what I think to be a good company / product but I do my best not to ever dictate. After all it's meant to be a free country... (Well used to be probably more akin to the USA now) $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R
🇬🇧ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó ´ó ¿ðŸ‡®ðŸ‡ªðŸ‡ºðŸ‡¸â›½ï¸ðŸ›¢ï¸âš™ï¸ðŸ§°ðŸ’ª |
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18th Nov 2012 10:51am |
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| JWL Member Since: 26 Oct 2011 Location: Hereford Posts: 3443  
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I'm afraid that I too generally go along with the view of the OP. As a single parent with two teenage boys money is tight and yes I do hanker after add ons for my 110 but not at the expense of my kids, whilst yes quality has to be paid for, how many actually use the higher end products to the full? Many of the higher end products will outlast what you are bolting them too! I know that R & D costs are huge for a new product along with tooling costs for production and if the idea is a good one then protection from cheap copies is not, dare I say it, cheap.
If there is a good idea that you see, I'm sure many on here have the 'nouse' to make one in their garage/workshop. I will openly admit to making my version of Mud Rails, I'm getting myself set up to make some rock sliders as I can't see anything on the market that suits and I'll make a swing away carrier. You could argue that those that make their own solutions can come up with a viable commercial product but then again if you make it to suit you then you'll be happy. For those who don't wish to get their hands dirty then yes you have to pay someone else, it's the price you have to pay. I do think that some on here are a little drawn into a "Mine's betterer and dearer than yours" culture but hey it's a free world and each to their own. Jesting and bickering makes the world go by and provides entertainment but things can quickly turn sour when some get serious. Personally I think that the current trend with a higher end brand will pass as those that are prepared to pay the prices will have exhausted the product range or wallets, will blow over and something else will take centre stage! Forgive the ramblings of a poor Defender owner who even poor, keeps if possible away from the blue boxes! |
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18th Nov 2012 10:52am |
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| davew Member Since: 02 Jan 2012 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 888 
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IMV as long as posts are polite, respectful and on topic I don't see any reason to moderate them, regardless of wether or not they might hurt an advertisers feelings. I think all forum members need to be considerate of others and try and stick to the topic more. Too many topics turn into debates where the OP is bombarded with information unrelated to the OP question by people who obviously never read the original question and after they've p****d the on topic contributors off the OP gets left hanging because the off topic contributors can't or won't answer the question.
I think there will always be a level of conflicting priorities when you allow advertising on a forum. It's not a new problem, many of the LR comics constantly struggle with the same problem. You only have to look at the scrapiron debacle to see how many staff and readers of the LR comics knew for several years that they were dodgy and their cheap imitation products were of such poor quality. However, you would never see a single complaint against them in the comics because most of them were carrying 2, 3, 4 or in one case 6 page adverts. It's not limited to scrapiron either, nearly all the comics have abandoned editorial content for advertorial as a way of keeping advertisers happy. Ever wonder why whenever they run a "top 10 xxxxx" the winner is always supplied by one of their regular advertisers ? At the end of the day the forum is only attractive to advertisers because there is a focussed customer group available to present their goods to. Advertising by posting in a forum, as opposed to using banner adverts, is always going to be tricky because those same customers have the opportunity to respond with questions and critique. In my view an advertiser who posts on a forum to advertise goods and services should expect that, you can't have it both ways - an active vibrant forum that is only allowed to reply to other forum members posts and not advertisers posts doesn't make sense. If moderation becomes too draconic then people move to other forums, reducing the number of potential customers and, consequently, the interest the advertisers have in using the forum to sell goods. In the same way as they would expect to get feedback both good and bad through other forms of social media, an advertiser on the forum needs to deal with both. TBH there is nothing that would put me off an advertiser more than a bunch of sycophants responding to every post they make telling them how good their s**t is and how wonderful they are. I wonder what would happen if a certain dodgy waxoyling company became an advertiser on this forum ? Would everyone that knows just how bad they and their products are be given a virtual gagging order because, having paid money to Martin, that makes them better than everyone else ? If it's such a problem then advertisers forum areas should be restricted so only the advertiser can post in there. Having said that I think advertisers get an easier ride on here than they would do elsewhere. So much so that one of the advertisers would, rightly in my view, get pilloried by the majority of real Land Rover owners in the UK and not given "house room" on many forums. On here I don't think I've seen a single negative post against them which says much for the restraint that is being shown (either that or Martin is deleting them !). Martin has been advised of the potential issue via PM but I guess it's all about the money at the end of the day. I assume that anyone who "donates" to the forum would also get preferential treatment, not sure what would be the state of play if a "donor" criticised an "advertiser" though. http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/ |
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18th Nov 2012 11:40am |
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| TooTall Member Since: 10 Jul 2012 Location: Fens Posts: 504 
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+1 here as well.
As a newby on here, I found it rather worrying that a recent post on here was "stamped-on"  simply because of the OP's perceived opinion on the relative value/cost of a site sponsors product.
Regards M. "Ease your worries, Clear-up your woes, Go into your garage & put stuff into rows." |
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18th Nov 2012 1:31pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2641 
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You can have a forum where free speech is allowed.
OR You can have a forum sponsored by companies selling goods. Never both 
I completely agree that if I want to state that I think paying £60 for a couple of bits of bent metal is utter madness, then I should be allowed to. The fact that a sponsor with an interest in selling these products pays money to this forum however means that this cannot occur. |
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18th Nov 2012 1:42pm |
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| SGH Member Since: 27 Sep 2010 Location: Hellingly-Sussex Posts: 1527
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Well said :thumbsup: I understand why sponsors want to tout their goods when paying ££££'s a month to advertise on here. I thought of being a forum sponsor but made the decision not to. Simon |
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18th Nov 2012 1:56pm |
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| BigRuss Member Since: 15 May 2010 Location: Norfolk Posts: 2785 
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Just to put the rat amoungst the pigeions
Don't forget that the sponsors are paying for this forum so you can use it for free 
Where as I may not like everything that is said on here and I don't agree with the slaggings off that goes on, both by members and sponsors. There is however a tool to report posts if you are not happy with them. Russell 2011MY 110 XS USW Black |
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18th Nov 2012 2:01pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20339
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But this is meant to be an open forum for general Defender discussion not for sales patter by anyone. For personal users there is the For Sale section with clear rules as guidance and the Sponsors section. As far as I am concerned if this is stuck to then I personally don't see any problem what so ever. PLUS some of us make a donation regardless of being a sponsor or not so have equal rights as it were. But the key area is it's voluntary not encouraged or expected and I do not see any preferential treatment go on. Martin only modifies what he and the general opinion sees fit. Certain posts if not locked will continue for days with no let up of nothing but sniping and aggression / sarcasm comments.
I think a lot of this is the time of year.  $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R
🇬🇧ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó ´ó ¿ðŸ‡®ðŸ‡ªðŸ‡ºðŸ‡¸â›½ï¸ðŸ›¢ï¸âš™ï¸ðŸ§°ðŸ’ª |
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18th Nov 2012 2:26pm |
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| bpman Member Since: 21 May 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 8069 
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Russ - buy a dictionary and I thought the saying was cat ?
As mentioned above without the members the sponsors would be arguing with themselves, the sponsors should treat us as potential customers and with respect, IMHO a condescending sponsor soon looses custom. There are lots of LR forums that run on members donations and are wild at times but they are not biased in anyway. I think Martin tries to keep things sweet and this was a nice friendly forum, the problem I feel is some of the sponsors need to lay off and let us post questions without being shown the latest and great this and that and maybe they would have time to work on their websites... and if I think £60 is too much for a couple of bits of german metal I'll say so and I don't expect my posts to be removed |
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18th Nov 2012 3:29pm |
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| Pam W Member Since: 25 Oct 2011 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1169 
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Just so people know, I requested that Martin delete a recent thread which had snipped and moved from another thread, putting me as the OP and making it look like I was the instigator of what turned into quite an agressive argument.
My posts had been made it light hearted banterish way but not necessarily taken in that way by others. I asked Martin to remove the locked thread as it was no longer in context to the original and served no useful purpose. It also made a friend of mine a bit  off, so that was the other reason I asked for it to be deleted.
I am still of the opinion that there should be free speech on the forum, within reason, and that includes asking sponsors to answer difficult questions on their products! ((I think a free debate on the subject of pricing and origin of products would be really interesting, if anyone wants to start one in the relevant topic area. For example, I'd also like to see more UK independent traders sourcing and commissioning products to be made in the UK. The UK has a great history in good quality engineering and manufacturing and TBH could do with a lot of support. I'd rather pay over the odds to have a good quality item that was designed and built in the UK than one from a German company (no offence to Germans but let's face it, our own personal economies depend on the health and wealth of our national economies, so we need to support them!). And to add to that debate, not all Chinese manufactured goods are crap, even if they are cheap. I have a Kingone winch. It is made in China with mods to the spec of the UK distributor to suit UK needs. It is badged a Goodwinch and its one of the most respected winches in the UK market..... )) Ta. Our blog - http://landytravels.com/ Yorkshire Off Road Club - http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net Last edited by Pam W on 18th Nov 2012 3:52pm. Edited 2 times in total |
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18th Nov 2012 3:39pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20339
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I second that Steve (BP)  $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R
🇬🇧ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó ´ó ¿ðŸ‡®ðŸ‡ªðŸ‡ºðŸ‡¸â›½ï¸ðŸ›¢ï¸âš™ï¸ðŸ§°ðŸ’ª |
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18th Nov 2012 3:47pm |
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| bpman Member Since: 21 May 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 8069
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totally agree |
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18th Nov 2012 4:02pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
I know exactly were you are coming from on this, but unfortunately this will happen on most forums that are sponsored by vendors/sponsors, though this is quite a sweeping comment I've just made, that is not deserved for a majority of sponsors on this forum. I will be honest in stating that I like to buy the best designed/engineered product that suits my needs and unfortunately for the British economy those products happen to come from Germany/Cyprus and Italy. I personally used to post everything I had purchased, including how I fitted the product along with a link to those products incase any one else thought of buying it. The results were the usual, far too expensive when Joe Bloggs does it for half the price, which is fine if you like Joe Bloggs kit or if that is how far your finances will stretch. What seems to get forgotten is that the posts that most members put on this forum take time to make including all the photographs taken throughout the project that slagging them due to the price or whom they got it from really makes me laugh, especially at some of this forums members comments when dealing with certain other sponsors products. Then there is the biggest cause of contests on this forum, remap suppliers!!!!!! A subject that involves me going up into the loft to don a flak jacket, before daring to comment on any aspect of that particular subject. That plus the comments on certain other posts means that now I don't really bother with this forum anymore other than visiting it occasionally, or to answer a pm and maybe posting my opinion and stating that, to dispel any sycophantic ramblings from a misconstrued slant against my choice of supplier over theirs. I like this forum a lot which is why I probable keep coming back instead of just deleting the bookmark, and just maybe I'm hoping it goes back to the way it was before.
Again this is just my own opinion whether it is right or wrong.
Brian. |
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18th Nov 2012 5:01pm |
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| BigRuss Member Since: 15 May 2010 Location: Norfolk Posts: 2785
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Freedom of speech  Russell
2011MY 110 XS USW Black |
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18th Nov 2012 5:28pm |
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