 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > 2007 tdci stalling after 15min drive SOLVED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
 
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| Dave-H Member Since: 08 Feb 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 1507   
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My 2007 90 had similar symptoms about 3 years ago ... would run fine til warm, then hiccup and surge until you turned it off and restarted.
Dealer ended up replacing the ECM under warranty. I think you need it plugged in to diagnostics ...... Guns and Landrovers .... anything else is irrelevant. |
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3rd Aug 2012 6:54pm |
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| erik l Member Since: 03 Aug 2012 Location: oostmalle Posts: 8  
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dave,
thx for the response... i have not got the opportunity to plug it in the diagnostics, that's the next step... did you get a warning light on when your similar problem occured? mine doesnt show any warning lights. This suggested me to think the problem wasnt electrical, but something to do with the fuel supply system. i changed the fuel filter, and checked the breather hose which runs from the top of the fuel tank towards the rear of the vehicle.. this seems fine. but when i go for a 15min drive, the 'hiccuping' starts all over again. couple of times it stalled, when i restart i have to run the starter motor several seconds, feels like there's air in the fuel system. it did restart and i lumped home again, with the 'hiccuping' again.. when home again, i tried to drain the fuel filter (on the bottom of the filter) and this made a hissing noise, the filter had definitely air in it and was pressurised, after 2 seconds letting air out the fuel came out clear (i only put in Shell Vpower) dont think this is normal is it? any suggestions WELCOME as im gettin pretty annoyed with the 'hiccups' |
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25th Aug 2012 2:38pm |
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| Glynparry25 Member Since: 16 Feb 2009 Location: Miserable Midlands Posts: 3015  
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On what Dave H says- I had a similar problem which disappeared after re-loading my ECU map. It was almost as thought there was a glitch in the system and it was messing it all up.
Glyn   |
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25th Aug 2012 3:40pm |
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| wslr Member Since: 18 Jul 2010 Location: Wellington, Somerset Posts: 581 
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You don't always get a light on the instrument pack, or any fault codes if it is something to do with the pump unit at the engine. You may get away with changing the VCV on the pump as this tends to fail, without codes and lights.
See - http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic13930.html?highlight=pump |
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25th Aug 2012 3:42pm |
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| dgardel Member Since: 30 Nov 2008 Location: Veneto (Heart & Head) Posts: 3586 
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When the power go down, is the injection noisy? if yes change the fuel filter.
if you have the Nanocom compare the comon rail calcolate pressure vs the measured. and check and clean the map avere the Erg deposits produce warm barrier. Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition 
IID Pro MV License |
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25th Aug 2012 5:12pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
It does sound like a fuel supply issue, but then again with a Puma experience has taught me that it is usually something else which is at fault.
 As others have said check and replace fuel filter, check that both tank breathers are not blocked and if that still does not clear the fault then move onto the fuel tank itself and the fuel lines. My mates Puma developed similar symptoms which turned out to be a blocked tank feed fuel line to the fuel filter at the filter housing as the inlet ports are small. There is no filtration between the tank and the filter housing, so crud had made its way to the filter blocking the inlet ports into the fuel filter. If you remove the feed pipe from the filter housing you may need to bleed the fuel system? I have the LR bleed tool so did this anyway, should have seen if the Puma would have run first though,without bleeding, as this would be very handy to know? This caused the ECU to run the low fuel protocol giving the fuel starvation symptoms whilst driving. I assumed wrongly that the IPAC would communicate with the EMS in relation to the tank volume before running the low fuel protocol as the tank at the time was full. I read recently that the fuel tank can become contaminated with a white jelly which can block and restrict the fuel feed, though I have never come across this? If all this pans out then I would move onto the electrical system.
First thing I would do is clean all the engine sensor plugs with electrical contact cleaner. Doing this first would eliminate a bad contact causing the issue. Ensure you do the MAP, MAF, EGR, Cam position sensor, Crankshaft position sensor, CHT (cylinder head temp sensor), VCV and the fuel rail pressure sensor plug. Whilst I am at that the MAP would be removed and cleaned with a carb cleaner. Depending on the age and mileage of the MAF that would also be swapped over for a new one. Next I would move inside the Puma and coat the AS10 modules two plugs in contact cleaner. Check all the fuses in the main fuse box under the seat are tight and have not blown. Move onto under the drivers seat and check that the relays are seated tightly and have no corrosion on the tines. The ECU fuse buried in the loom under the drivers seat would be next. Move onto under the pass seat and check the battery connections are tight. Once all of this was done I would go for a run with the MSV2 connected with the live data page recording the engine outputs. If the fault reoccurs then I would have the data at hand to where to start looking for the fault knowing it was not down to a corroded plug. MAF sensor Click image to enlarge EGR Click image to enlarge MAP sensor Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge CHT sensor Click image to enlarge Fuel Rail, on the left of the rail is the pressure sensor. On the right of the rail is the pressure limiting valve which is a one shot affair. Click image to enlarge ECU fuse under drivers seat in loom, C0602. Just my tuppence worth. 
Brian. EDIT: Just noticed yours is a left hooker so the drivers and pass seats are opposite to what I wrote above. :thumbsup: Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated  |
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26th Aug 2012 9:52am |
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| erik l Member Since: 03 Aug 2012 Location: oostmalle Posts: 8
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hi everybody,
first i would like to thank all of you for reading my post and sharing your thoughts on the problem. this morning i started work on my stalling defender again. To be sure the fuel system was OK, and my first gut feeling it was a fuel problem (not electrical), this is what i did: 1. removed the fuel tank to inspect and clean. the little plastic 'bucket' on the bottom of the fuel pickup had something that looked like black silicone kit in it, this wasnt blocking the tube for fuel pick up but i cleaned everything before putting back together. 2. onwards to the fuel lines. on reading trough the forum, i saw a post from SEB110 which had exactly the same symptoms as mine, problem there was a clogged fuel line, more specifically the connection on the fuel filter. My fuel lines were ok, but i then removed the fuel filter housing. this has 2 connections towards the engine and 2 again which link to the tank. HEY PRESTO : The 'inward' fuel connection on the filter housing was totally clogged, i could hardly blow into it. there was a mixture of sand or clay or ????. 3. cleaning everything toroughly before putting back together, time for the big test drive, all is well now! im happy it isnt something electrical (expensive). so worth checking the filter housing when changing the filter in my opinion... thx again for the replies erik |
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26th Aug 2012 8:12pm |
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| erik l Member Since: 03 Aug 2012 Location: oostmalle Posts: 8
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anyone know how i can post a picture? i can see a button with 'IMG' in it, but this doesnt do anything...
thx erik |
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26th Aug 2012 8:15pm |
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| dgardel Member Since: 30 Nov 2008 Location: Veneto (Heart & Head) Posts: 3586
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Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition
IID Pro MV License |
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26th Aug 2012 9:22pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
Erik, did you need to bleed the fuel system after removing the feed pipes? Yours is the second one I have heard off with the silicone jelly in the tank, any ideas of where it came from? Do you use cheap supermarket fuel? I know that supermarkets sometimes add silicone to the fuel, and recently here in the UK a major supermarket chain (Tesco) paid out to have customers cars repaired due to the fuel being contaminated with excess silicone. Glad you sourced the issue with your Puma, now we need to find out what is the cause of the silicone jelly in the fuel tank? Brian. |
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26th Aug 2012 9:30pm |
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| wslr Member Since: 18 Jul 2010 Location: Wellington, Somerset Posts: 581
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Brian: I've only seen a Disco2 with this but I suspect there is an early Puma about to have the same thing.
I think it is down to poor maintenance as well as bio-diesel fuel. Many of the fuel conditioners prevent this happening. Something about biology going on in the tank under certain conditions? |
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26th Aug 2012 10:28pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
Richard, I forgot about the 5-7% bio diesel in ordinary diesel
The biology angle would certainly explain a few things, I was thinking along the lines of the fuel having to much silicone in the mix which builds up over time in that it would settle to the bottom of the tank and over time would end up as a jelly? I use BP ultimate and every 6 months the tank gets a dose of Forte treatment to help things along, so it will be interesting to see if this combination differs any. I will be removing the fuel filter and housing to fabricate a new mounting bracket so that the glass water bowl can be fitted to the filter and not come into contact with the trailing arm. I think I'll drop the tank and have a look to see if there is any contamination in the tank, plus it would also be a good opportunity to finally fit the fuel feed pipes for the webasto, winters coming....... 
Brian. |
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27th Aug 2012 3:59pm |
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| wslr Member Since: 18 Jul 2010 Location: Wellington, Somerset Posts: 581
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Yes, I read an article somewhere about this - you've got all the elements that bacteria need to multiply and I think that this gunk is the product of that. The Forte (I tend to use Wynns, but it is the same factory) fuel conditioner kill this off and sterilise the tank as one of the things it does.
When I first came across it, I thought it was due to chip fat or similar being used in the past...  |
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27th Aug 2012 5:00pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
Some interesting reading I found on Diesel bacterial contamination:
In January 2010 a new fuel directive (2009/30/EU) was released by the EU which has caused much confusion among many industries. The directive requires that all Non Road Mobile Machinery -including agricultural, and construction equipment, and mobile gen-sets and pumps, amongst others - use only Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) . It was the intention of this legislation to reduce sulphur related emissions, but it has had other knock-on effects. Sulphur is required in diesel to provide lubrication for the engine, whithout it engine components experience greater wear. Removing almost all of this sulphur reduces the lubiricity of the diesel, which is currently solved by adding bio-diesel to the fuel, as it has a superior lubiricity to petro diesel. Whilst adding bio-diesel solves the lubiricity issue, it causes problems with fuel contamination. What causes Diesel Fuel Contamination? Compared to petro diesel, bio-diesel has inferior oxygen stability, meaning if bio-diesel comes into contact with oxygen while in the fuel tank, it reacts with it to form peroxide. The presence of this peroxide then allows the formation of organic acids. These organic acids then, in turn, cause gums and resins to form in the fuel, a common cause of blocked engine filters. Another problem with Bio-diesel is its increased hygroscopy compared to petro-diesel, meaning that if absorbs more water. Bio-diesel can absorb up to 1500ppm of water, much higher than pertro-diesel's 50ppm, resulting in a higher dissolved water content in the fuel. As the temperature of the fuel rises and falls during engine operation this dissolved water precipitates out of the fuel. As this water is heavier than the fuel it sinks to the bottom of the tank, forming a layer of free-water. This free-water can encourage the growth of diesel bug. Other causes of contamination include poor fuel storage, bad fuel transfer and housekeeping practices, or simple human error, and can result in grit, rust, water and sand and other contaminants ending up in the fuel, which ultimately could harm the engine fuel system. What problems does diesel fuel contamination cause? Today's diesel engines are much less tolerant of fuel contaminants than older engines. Any contamination by water or other substance has a chance of causing permanent damage to the engine or fuel system if it gets into the engine. The presence of water in fuel injection systems can greatly increase the amount of wear inflicted on the engine and may damage it. However water in fuel tanks also causes another serious problem known as 'diesel bug'. Diesel Bug is the generic name given to the microbes that grow within fuel tanks. It is a cocktail of up to 100 different strains of bacteria, mould and yeast. Like all living organisms they need food and water to survive. Fuel is their food and the presence of free water in the tank will allow them to thrive and feed on the hydrocarbons in your diesel. Not only does this gradually degrade the quality of the fuel, but the microbes will also produce bio-mass which will block engine filters. They also excrete acids that will, over time, corrode your fuel tank. Brian. |
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27th Aug 2012 6:21pm |
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