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blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17372

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

A cautionary tale about hub nuts.

Today I fitted new front discs, calipers and pads to my '07 Puma DC.

Anyone who's taken the hubs off a Puma (or late TD5) will know that Landrover in their infinite wisdom changed from the old arrangement of hub nuts (an adjusting nut, tab washer, and locknut, an arrangement that has worked very well for nearly 60 years) to a system using a spacer between the bearings and a one-use-only nut, tightened to 150lbft, with a collar to stake down into a flat on the stub axle. The result of this retrograde step, done I believe solely to reduce build costs, is that the hub nut cannot be reused.

When I stockpiled the parts for this job, I foolishly didn't bother to get any hub nuts since I knew that I had four brand new ones stashed away 'just in case' I needed them. What I had forgotted until I started the job was that they came from a well-known supplier of budget spares that usually are defective in some way and were in blue packaging.

Not to worry, I thought, surely no-one could mess up something as simple as a hub nut! WRONG!

When I came to reassemble the first hub, the new nut seemed a little stiff as it went on (and no, it wasn't cross-threaded) and after about 5 turns it was clear that attemting to screw it further would cause damage. Worse, it wouldn't come off. Significant torque was required to remove it, and when it came off, so did the threads of the stub axle.

It turns out that all four brand new 'blue box' hub nuts have defective threads. I haven't yet had time to measure them to find out exactly what is wrong, but they are either the wrong pitch, or they are undersize, or the thread is not fully formed. The only good thing that a QA man could find to say about them is that they are consistently defective!

So, a trip to the dealer to get new hub nuts. Also, due to the thread damage it suffered I have now had to renew the stub axle as well.

Now it is very, very rare that I buy anything from this particular supplier, but as I was cursing this afternoon I was trying to remember if I have ever had anything from this brand which was actually totally satisfactory and did the job it was sold to do without any problems. I actually cannot remember a single part that hasn't been defective in some way, ever. The last 'blue box' item I bought was a mirror head for the Puma, and that was a s*d to fit because the retaining plate that clamps round the ball on the mirror arm wasn't the right shape and the socket head cap screw supplied had a defective head. Utter rubbish.

Morals of this story:

1) You get what you pay for (except in the case of Genuine Parts)
2) Don't expect to have a good day if you buy anything that comes in the infamous blue packaging.

It must be said that the Delphi discs and AP calipers are superb quality, and are exactly the same as those removed (including part numbers and casting numbers) and were (a) half the price of Genuine Parts and (b) approx four times the price of 'blue box' parts.

26th Jul 2012 10:02pm

JWL

Member Since: 26 Oct 2011
Location: Hereford
Posts: 3443

I think the only thing I can reccomend from the purveyors of the blue box is......................................the fitted seat covers! Mine have lasted a fair while now for the Defender, the Disco ones were good as well but I do remember the Disco 1 covers were back to front and inside out for one of the back seat squabs.

So, no, I can't really give good words for those either

26th Jul 2012 10:37pm

bob neville

Member Since: 30 Apr 2009
Location: Marbella
Posts: 3248

Hi Blackwolf, where did you get the Delphi discs from , I need to get new discs for the TD5 ?

Had a look on the web the other week and couldn't really find what I was looking for.

Ta

Bob 2015 Jaguar XE240 R Sport - goes like ....... !!
2013 Defender 90 CSW - sold
2009 Defender 110 Double Cab - sold
2001 TD5 90 CSW - offroad project - sold to a forum member
2011 Porsche Boxster - for the sunny days !

27th Jul 2012 7:09am

Zagato
Site Supporter

Member Since: 08 Jan 2011
Location: Billingshurst West Sussex
Posts: 5013

'Sh/tpart' up to their usual standard then

I wonder if the the hub nuts are included in the "new parts under warranty scheme" what a joke

27th Jul 2012 8:00am

wslr

Member Since: 18 Jul 2010
Location: Wellington, Somerset
Posts: 581

I still live in awe how Britpart actually keep going! Still, let's face it; there are people out there who want cheap parts to fit to cheap vehicles and are 'happy' to accept the risk with them (apparently...).

Genuine Parts are not perfect either - I know someone who had to re-drill some mounting holes in genuine part discs the other day. We've had faulty D3 door looms when the loom looks nothing like it should be, but has the correct part number attached to both the bag and the loom.

27th Jul 2012 8:23am

Happyoldgit

Member Since: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 3471

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey

What a PITA

They haven't attracted the name

for nothing. Steve.
Owned numerous Land Rover vehicles of all shapes and sizes over the decades.
Current Defender: A non tarts hand-bagged Puma 110 XS USW.

[Insert something impressive here such as extensive list of previous Land Rovers or examples of your prestigeous and expensive items, trinkets, houses, bikes, vehicles etc]

http://forums.lr4x4.com

I used to be Miserable ...but now I'm ecstatic.

27th Jul 2012 8:37am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17372

bob neville wrote:

Hi Blackwolf, where did you get the Delphi discs from , I need to get new discs for the TD5 ?

Had a look on the web the other week and couldn't really find what I was looking for.

Ta

Bob

I got them from Brookwells, a company I have bought stuff from on several occasions and which has always provided first class service.

28th Jul 2012 4:39pm

bob neville

Member Since: 30 Apr 2009
Location: Marbella
Posts: 3248

Thanks

Bob 2015 Jaguar XE240 R Sport - goes like ....... !!
2013 Defender 90 CSW - sold
2009 Defender 110 Double Cab - sold
2001 TD5 90 CSW - offroad project - sold to a forum member
2011 Porsche Boxster - for the sunny days !

28th Jul 2012 6:15pm

strang

Member Since: 16 May 2012
Location: Happy Valley
Posts: 1380

2009 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Galway Green

I would not buy anything in a 'blue' box to be honest. I have just heard of yet another series steering relay sheering off! That must be at least three to date that I have heard of. For this company to continue selling such dangerous products is bordering on criminal behavior IMHO! Euro-Leafing to infinity and beyond.....

28th Jul 2012 8:25pm

womble

Member Since: 27 Jan 2012
Location: south east
Posts: 272

hub nuts

i was in an independant repairer and parts supplier a couple of months ago and he also referred yo them as s

t !!!iwont be buying their stuff any more

28th Jul 2012 10:02pm

Harryb450

Member Since: 11 Dec 2011
Location: over yonder
Posts: 283

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Santorini Black

Re: A cautionary tale about hub nuts.

[quote="blackwolf"]Today I fitted new front discs, calipers and pads to my '07 Puma DC.

Anyone who's taken the hubs off a Puma (or late TD5) will know that Landrover in their infinite wisdom changed from the old arrangement of hub nuts (an adjusting nut, tab washer, and locknut, an arrangement that has worked very well for nearly 60 years) to a system using a spacer between the bearings and a one-use-only nut, tightened to 150lbft, with a collar to stake down into a flat on the stub axle. The result of this retrograde step, done I believe solely to reduce build costs, is that the hub nut cannot be reused.quote]

is this figure same for front and back? thanks, Harry

29th Jul 2012 11:43am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17372

As far as I know it applies front and back to all vehicles fitted with the "idiot tube" spacers and single nut retention.

If your hubs have a single nut (with a collar on the nut that is staked into a flat on the stub-axle) then you will have a spacer between the bearings. In this case the nut must be tightened to 150lbft and staked (the reason for the high torque is to ensure correct nut retention and is nothing to do with the bearings themselves). If it is not adequately tightened there is a very good chance that it will work loose even if staked.

If your hubs have two nuts with a locking washer between them then you don't have a spacers between the bearings (unless the hubs have been altered from standard) and the bearings should be adjusted and the nuts secured the traditional way.

Note however that if you have the newer (single nut/spacer) arrangement then it is quite acceptable (and indeed desirable) to modify it either:

1) by removing the spacer tube and replacing the single nut with the older-style paired nuts and locking washer. If you do this, set up the bearings in the traditional way. You must use the later style locking washer though which has a "D" shaped hole, not the earlier "Series" type which had a tab to engage in a slot on the stub axle, or

2) leaving the spacer fitted and fitting the two old-style nuts together with the locking washer between them. In this case, it is my opinion that the inner nut no longer needs to be torqued to 150lbft since it is no longer dependent upon preload to prevent it coming loose.

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES modify the hub by removing the spacer but retaining the single nut fixing since the nut will almost certainly work loose with potentially very serious consequences.

30th Jul 2012 11:24am

astoltz

Member Since: 08 Mar 2011
Location: South Africa
Posts: 31

Re: A cautionary tale about hub nuts.

[quote="Harryb450"]

blackwolf wrote:
Today I fitted new front discs, calipers and pads to my '07 Puma DC.

Anyone who's taken the hubs off a Puma (or late TD5) will know that Landrover in their infinite wisdom changed from the old arrangement of hub nuts (an adjusting nut, tab washer, and locknut, an arrangement that has worked very well for nearly 60 years) to a system using a spacer between the bearings and a one-use-only nut, tightened to 150lbft, with a collar to stake down into a flat on the stub axle. The result of this retrograde step, done I believe solely to reduce build costs, is that the hub nut cannot be reused.quote]

is this figure same for front and back? thanks, Harry

one can revert back to the previous method:

To revert back to the previous (Older TD5,Tdi,2.8i) way Land Rover fasten the Hub assembly do the following:
Per Wheel:
Buy 2x Locknuts - FRC8700
Buy 1x Lockwasher - FTC3179

- Remove/dicard 1x spacer that is used to set the preload - TOF1000xxx
- Re-use 1x Washer - FTC5241
- Remove/discard 1x Locknut (RFD100000) and replace with 2x Locknuts - FRC8700
- Fit 1x Lockwasher - FTC3179 bewteen the above 2x Locknuts
- Fit as per RAVE Manual using the previous (Older TD5,Tdi,2.8i) method

I prefer setting the pre-load using the older method (You do not need to measure the "endfloat" and then buy a suitable spacer) it is also easier to perform "bush" repairs if needed

when my Puma is out of warrenty I will do the above

PS: The bearings on previous models is the same Part Number as the later Td5's and Puma's : STC4382

Regards
Abrie 1997 Land Rover Defender 110 HT 2.8i
(BMW M52)

2009 Land Rover Defender 110 HT 2.4 TDCi(Puma)

30th Jul 2012 1:00pm

Harryb450

Member Since: 11 Dec 2011
Location: over yonder
Posts: 283

Thanks chaps!

30th Jul 2012 5:59pm

MK

Member Since: 28 Aug 2008
Location: Santiago
Posts: 2414

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Chawton White

Re: A cautionary tale about hub nuts.

[quote="astoltz"]

Harryb450 wrote:
blackwolf wrote:
Today I fitted new front discs, calipers and pads to my '07 Puma DC.

Anyone who's taken the hubs off a Puma (or late TD5) will know that Landrover in their infinite wisdom changed from the old arrangement of hub nuts (an adjusting nut, tab washer, and locknut, an arrangement that has worked very well for nearly 60 years) to a system using a spacer between the bearings and a one-use-only nut, tightened to 150lbft, with a collar to stake down into a flat on the stub axle. The result of this retrograde step, done I believe solely to reduce build costs, is that the hub nut cannot be reused.quote]

is this figure same for front and back? thanks, Harry

one can revert back to the previous method:

To revert back to the previous (Older TD5,Tdi,2.8i) way Land Rover fasten the Hub assembly do the following:
Per Wheel:
Buy 2x Locknuts - FRC8700
Buy 1x Lockwasher - FTC3179

- Remove/dicard 1x spacer that is used to set the preload - TOF1000xxx
- Re-use 1x Washer - FTC5241
- Remove/discard 1x Locknut (RFD100000) and replace with 2x Locknuts - FRC8700
- Fit 1x Lockwasher - FTC3179 bewteen the above 2x Locknuts
- Fit as per RAVE Manual using the previous (Older TD5,Tdi,2.8i) method

I prefer setting the pre-load using the older method (You do not need to measure the "endfloat" and then buy a suitable spacer) it is also easier to perform "bush" repairs if needed

when my Puma is out of warrenty I will do the above

PS: The bearings on previous models is the same Part Number as the later Td5's and Puma's : STC4382

Regards
Abrie

Done when I re-greased the bearings.

Puma 110" SW

.............................................................
Earth first. Other planets later

30th Jul 2012 8:52pm

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