 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Warning on running away parked in gear w/o handbrake |
 
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436   
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I noticed something that might come as an unwelcome surprise to new owners. Never had this with other cars on such small inclines.
First of all let me also say that compression of my engine is 100% ok and there is no slippage on the clutch. When parked on a hill, even a very slight incline without the handbrake on and put in 2nd or higher gear the defender will start rolling forward. Slowly it will creep forward till it overcomes the engine resistance and then it starts rolling a bit faster, slows down as compression rises and overcomes it again. Its almost a start-stop sequence. Our driveway has a 1% incline.(only!) It takes the 110 about 3minutes to roll it down in 2nd. (faster in higher gears) The stupidity is that you leave the car and think it is standing, but after a couple of seconds…. There it goes. In 1st gear it does not do it, but even so the resistance must be much much lower than one would expect and it can only be a good idea not to rely on it and use the handbrake in all cases. Just putting this up as many people stop using their handbrake avoiding the usual hassles with sticking pads once mud got in etc. I am also sure that a Td5 did not do this, nor did my disco1 V8. Probably its only related to the gearing of the puma gearbox vs the older types which causes this. Maybe its just me but it took me by surprise. (and Ms Tatra which was sitting in the car while I ran off to get my phone  ) |
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13th Jul 2012 8:21am |
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| ZeDefender Member Since: 15 Sep 2011 Location: Munich Posts: 4731  
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I also noticed in Italy recently that engine braking in 2nd was not as efficient as expected (steeper inclines though).
I take the "unGerman" approach and always use the handbrake (including at lights), not least because it centers the shoes and stops it rattling like   Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing... |
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13th Jul 2012 8:27am |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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Blackwolf, of course you are right
only... i am always surprised about how many people are having a barely functional handbrake. Most of them because of being tired cleaning them out after offroading and rather not using the handbrake. Also during winter over here it is simply a guarantee to park your car for a couple of months instead of 1 night if you risk putting the handbrake on. As my def is not my daily drive it stands parked for minimum a week between rides, i never put the handbrake on to avoid the pads sticking. |
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13th Jul 2012 8:38am |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8582 
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If parking up for some time without handbrake on then try chocking the wheels.
If people have problems with the drum type handbrake then consider the X brake from X Eng. Have a look HERE We have a Mk 1 version on our red 110 and have had no problems with it. The X Eng gear is good gear and Simon sometimes pops up here as Simon R. He is a good guy to deal with and we have used various bits of X Eng gear. 
Brendan |
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13th Jul 2012 8:52am |
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| wslr Member Since: 18 Jul 2010 Location: Wellington, Somerset Posts: 581
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Reminds me of this at 3:50...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t127UCrtvLw |
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13th Jul 2012 10:00am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17450 
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I guess that I am really old-fashioned, since I always park with the car in gear, the handbrake on, and the front wheels turned into the kerb if in a gradient.
If for any reason I either cannot use the handbrake or doubt its efficiency (ie I don't want it to freeze on, or it is full of crud) then leave it in low first or reverse. Anyway please don't think I was being critical of your post, Tatra, but it does provide all the more reason why you shouldn't rely simply on a high range gear to hold your pride and joy. |
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13th Jul 2012 10:13am |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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Blackwolf; no offense taken at all, and your procedure is the right way to do things
btw your wheel towards kerb practice is a very valuable but mostly forgotten practice. Not only on slopes but in any situation. If your car gets rear-ended it will at least not shoot into the possible upcoming trafic. Same goes when waiting to make a turn or U turn, keep your wheels straight till you can make the turn. I saw one being rear-ended and shot into the oncoming trafic and adding a frontal crash to the damage report. anyway, it was just that we were surprised and amused to see the 110 starting a life on its own on such a small slope.  |
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13th Jul 2012 10:48am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17450
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Quite right, and I do that too! I am not paranoid but have found that if you assume that everyone else on the road is either criminally incompetent and dangerous, or else a paid assassin who's been given your name, you'll survive longer. So, for example, you never turn the steering to the right if waiting to turn right, you do it as you turn. If you are the rear vehicle in a queue, you leave a decent size gap in front of you and keep your eyes on the mirror for the idiot coming up behind who hasn't noticed that you're stationary (this has saved me in the past from being rear-ended). Nowadays of course you also have to be aware of the "crash-for-cash" compensation fraudsters who want you to rear-end them (although I have the impression that they don't usually try this with vehicles as substantial as a Defender - I think they want to claim for whiplash without actually having it). It is a dangerous world out there! I reckon that your 110 is talking to you, just like the family pet dog goes to the back door when it wants to go out! |
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13th Jul 2012 11:34am |
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| Lukey Boy Member Since: 10 Jun 2011 Location: Norwich Posts: 122 
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btw your wheel towards kerb practice is a very valuable but mostly forgotten practice. Not only on slopes but in any situation. If your car gets rear-ended it will at least not shoot into the possible upcoming trafic.
Good call Blackwolf. I never think of that I have to admit!  2008 110 XS CSW Stornoway Grey |
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13th Jul 2012 5:50pm |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816  
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I am very surprised to hear about this issue. The Puma 2.4 Tdci is having a compression ratio of 18.5:1 which is quite high. The current Puma 2.2 Tdci has a lower compression ratio of 15.5:1, and I have noted that this can be felt when driving and using the engine brake when idling to slow down.
With such a high compression ratio as the 2.4 Tdci, and a consequently strong engine brake as I do experience all the time, much higher compression (more than double) than any gasoline engine for instance, how is it possible that the Defender would start to move on a not too big slope if not using the hand brake but leaving it in 1st or 2nd gear? Really surprised, but thanks for the advise, because I am a notary non hand break user myself, always relying on the engine in gear when parking. It never rolled sofar, but clearly never say never.... You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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13th Jul 2012 6:58pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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have the rtt open en awning out at the moment but if it stops raining and things are dry enough to pack up i'll make a video of it.
My theory is that the weight of the car in combination with the different gearing compared to eg a Td5 make this happen. Thought i was dreaming when checking it out. and it really looks as only 1st gear is able to hold the car on compression, which is frightening to me as i dont know with how much margin. if anybody would be willing to check it out it would also confirm to me that mine is ''normal'' |
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13th Jul 2012 7:14pm |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816
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I will surely test it out one of these days. Plenty of slopes around here in Geneva area
Two related questions, am I right to think that in case where you leave the car parked in gear on a upward slope (meaning front of the car facing uphill), you have to leave the gearbox in reverse, and if you leave it on a downward slope, you leave it in 1st? Is that right? And what happens if you do it wrong? If the Defender starts moving, the whole engine mechanism would turn in the wrong sense, is that an issue? You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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13th Jul 2012 7:22pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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i noticed this facing down in forward gears. did not check opposite.
I was once told by a mechanic to not put reverse when going downhill forwards, and opposite not leave it in first when it rolls backwards. His point was that the distribution chain or belt gets tensioned up the wrong way and when you start the engine afterwards and the chain has a bit of slack in it it will get a shock load and risks breaking. There is a logic in that although i always wondered if these chains are really that weak, in case of belts i can image they would be prone to slip a bit and after several times you could get your timing off.. Having the engine turning opposite direction is not an issue as far as i know, as long as no fluids are involved. Some old agricultural 2 cylinder diesel engines were notorious for running backwards if started in the wrong way.(esp after stalling and related to the position of crankshaft) a last thing i tried was to have the car roll a couple of meters and then let out the clutch in 1st. wheels almost slipped and there was no possibility to overcome the compression. |
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13th Jul 2012 7:39pm |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816
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Good to see I do it right. I am not going to test anything either tonight or tomorrow, because it is raining cats and dogs here in Geneva right now
 So the Defender stays nicely und the carport cover You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation.
http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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13th Jul 2012 7:47pm |
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