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katsiki80



Member Since: 12 Apr 2012
Location: North East
Posts: 6
A Brain Teaser for all the Puma Genuises. Running Issues.
Hi Everyone.

First of all, thanks for taking to the time to look at this post. We have an usual problem with a 110 Crew Cab Puma Defender that we have inherited from another garage (the problem, not the vehicle).

Basically, the vehicle runs normally for the first mile or two. Then you'll feel a slight hesitation as the problem kicks in and pushing the vehicle at pretty much any speed after that point makes the vehicle jerk on and off like the engine is cutting out completely. It never cuts out completely unless you bring the vehicle to idle during one of these cutting out episodes and then will it idle for a few seconds and then die. Under normal driving conditions you could potentially feather through the jerking, and the power after the cut out is fairly normal - ie not traditional fuel starvation.

This vehicle never has ANY fault codes logged AT ALL and has been driven without the fuel cap to help eliminate any fuel tank breathing issues. High rail fuel pressure DOES drop off at the time of cutting out and for some time after that the commanded value and the actual value do not really correspond much at all.

It has had the following work carried out on it, not necessarily in this order:

    High pressure fuel rail
    VCV - fitted before the high pressure pump
    High pressure fuel pump
    Pressure relief valve - which incidentally was in many pieces when removed
    Software update to coincide with the above valve being replaced
    Mass air flow meter
    Fuel filter
    Air filter
    The 10AS security passive coil has been disabled


Any light that could be shed on this problem would be a huge help.

Thanks.
Post #138794 12th Apr 2012 7:03pm
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fekete



Member Since: 24 Dec 2008
Location: Here on the other end of the computer
Posts: 3626
United Kingdom 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Bonatti Grey
Throttle censor maybe ?.... some one with more knowledge than me will be along soon and give you more info and help Thumbs Up NEVER TAKE LIFE SERIOUSLY. NOBODY GETS OUT ALIVE ANYWAY
Post #138797 12th Apr 2012 7:18pm
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Lorryman100



Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686
How did you disable the passive coil, electronically or manually? Any excessive smoking before/during or after the event? Is the injector electrical circuit still firing when you get the drop in rail pressure? Is the throttle sensor plug contaminated?Unplug the EGR and see if this makes a difference. Check the MAP for excessive contamination. Have you done the fast idle test on IDS?




Brian.
Post #138800 12th Apr 2012 7:25pm
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Dave-H



Member Since: 08 Feb 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1507
England 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Tonga Green
mine had similar symptoms back in 2009 ... turned out to be a corrupted ECM [though it was showing a fault code as ECM] Took a while for LR to suss as ECM would re-map ok but fail again after a few miles

Replacement ECM module solved it Guns and Landrovers .... anything else is irrelevant.
Post #138802 12th Apr 2012 7:28pm
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katsiki80



Member Since: 12 Apr 2012
Location: North East
Posts: 6
Hi Guys.

Thanks for your prompt replies. Just to answer a few of your questions.

    * I've disabled the passive coil electronically by altering a few of the settings. Is this sufficient?
    * I haven't noticed any unusual amounts of smoke from the vehicle at all, whether it be hot, cold, running well or poorly.
    * I'm using Autologic, so I'm assuming by fast idle test, this is the same as their leak test? Holds the vehicle at a given RPM for so many seconds? It failed this once during the early days of testing but have done it twice since with a pass both times.
    * Would a TPS cause the engine to die completely? I neglected to mention that it sometimes takes a few seconds cranking after it's cut out to restart the vehicle - and sometimes it'll cut out again immediately after.
    * I'm not sure if there is any easy way of seeing if the injectors are still firing using Autologic.
    * I had my suspicions of the ECM purely down to the fact that it logged no fault codes at all, even with a blown fuel pressure relief valve.


Thanks again.
Post #138816 12th Apr 2012 7:47pm
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Lorryman100



Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686
pm sent Thumbs Up
Post #138822 12th Apr 2012 8:02pm
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MK



Member Since: 28 Aug 2008
Location: Santiago
Posts: 2410
Chile 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Chawton White
my 2 pc. Did you check on fusibles? speed sensor plug? Puma 110" SW

.............................................................
Earth first. Other planets later
Post #138866 12th Apr 2012 10:17pm
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cradgebank



Member Since: 30 Dec 2008
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 308
England 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
Gut feeling is its electronic, but worth checking the fuel lines for damage, either pinched or air leak and may be worth checking inside the fuel tank for debris that is restricting fuel flow. Richard

Either a 90, 110 or 130.
Discovery 5
Post #138875 13th Apr 2012 12:02am
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katsiki80



Member Since: 12 Apr 2012
Location: North East
Posts: 6
It's a bizarre one, it almost feels like a fuel shortage. The car never cuts out completely when you're driving, it just hiccups but violently enough to make the drive train clatter. It will do it fairly consistently when the car is warm but not even a whisper when it's cold.
Post #138914 13th Apr 2012 7:47am
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110SEB



Member Since: 29 Jan 2009
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 1444
United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
Sounds very familiar. Check out my post called 'Unexpectedly cutting out' (i think). I've forgotten who else had this problem, but the culprit was a poor connection under the drivers seat in the ECU. Try that. It's as though the plug is being pulled altogether on the car.
Post #138975 13th Apr 2012 12:54pm
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katsiki80



Member Since: 12 Apr 2012
Location: North East
Posts: 6
Just a quick update for everyone. Had the fuel tank out today, with the hope of finding something untoward lurking in there. The swirl pot had about 1/4" of what can only be described as jellied silt in the bottom. I was hoping this would cure it, as it would explain why it was considerably more pronounced when it was hot - ie the return being driven to the tank when the filter thermostat opened and caused the jet at the bottom of the swirl pot to disturb the muck and therefore clog the feed. Unfortunately, no joy - and this time the engine would die completely when it started to play up.

50% of the time, it will start straight back up, albeit with a little bit of cranking and then die immediately. If you leave it for a few minutes, it starts and runs ok but you can feel the problem is still in the background.

I also ran it with the fuel rail pressure sensor disconnected and it did exactly the same. The engine ECU was removed and found to have lots of silicone in the pins, which has also been cleaned out but to no effect.

The most frustrating part of this is the lack of fault codes. Does anybody have any suggestions? Has anyone had VCV wiring faults with no fault codes?
Post #139658 16th Apr 2012 7:55pm
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katsiki80



Member Since: 12 Apr 2012
Location: North East
Posts: 6
One word for you all - SOLVED!!! Thanks for all of your suggestions.
Post #139869 17th Apr 2012 4:32pm
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Bearcat



Member Since: 09 Dec 2011
Location: Dublin
Posts: 57
Ireland 
ehhh, you just cant leave us in the lurch with solved.....what was the definitive reason for your problems so we can all learn from your experience? Current...07 90 Puma commercial
Porsche 930 1988 (laid up)
Previous Td5 90 & V8 90
Post #139871 17th Apr 2012 4:36pm
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MK



Member Since: 28 Aug 2008
Location: Santiago
Posts: 2410
Chile 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Chawton White
Idea Puma 110" SW

.............................................................
Earth first. Other planets later
Post #139909 17th Apr 2012 6:14pm
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katsiki80



Member Since: 12 Apr 2012
Location: North East
Posts: 6
I wondered if you'd be interested Smile You might want to pay particular interest to the filter head, especially the inlet side of the feed pipe. Turned out ours was nearly completely blocked. The ports are very fine and look like they will be prone to blocking. The problem is, there's no filtration between the tank and that point, so any debris will get trapped there.

25 miles later and everything seems fine with the vehicle. I thought we had to be on the right track with what we found in the tank.
Post #139914 17th Apr 2012 6:36pm
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