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| farmer giles Member Since: 09 Feb 2011 Location: worcestershire Posts: 1299  
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don't use sand as a fuel additive?
i'm not much help, am i? |
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16th Dec 2011 4:27pm |
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| 110SEB Member Since: 29 Jan 2009 Location: Essex, England Posts: 1444  
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My independent suspects idle valve. It's going in in the morning to be plugged in. P in the A
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16th Dec 2011 4:38pm |
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| 110SEB Member Since: 29 Jan 2009 Location: Essex, England Posts: 1444
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The OBD reader didn't find any fault codes. The problem hasn't reoccurred today so we're keeping our eyes peeled for it to happen again.
All ideas still very welcome. If anyone is in need of help in Essex. Martin at Island Land Rovers clearly knows his onions. |
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17th Dec 2011 12:55pm |
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| szracer Member Since: 10 Oct 2010 Location: Cotswolds Posts: 356  
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Water in the fuel?
Cold, wet weather causing condensation in the tank? OK, I'm clutching at straws!  
2010 110 XS USW (the slow one) 1960 Alfa Romeo Giulietta SZ (the fast one) 2005 Ducati ST3 1954 Sunbeam S8 |
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17th Dec 2011 1:34pm |
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| 110SEB Member Since: 29 Jan 2009 Location: Essex, England Posts: 1444
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This problem is persisting and it seems that it's not a problem that has been encountered before.
I understand that early Td5 engines were prone to stalling but that it was resolved subsequently. Tdci engines are not that new to LR now so i'm stumped. I called the AA out today and he too found no fault codes. Still a mystery. The AA chap said that the only time he'd encountered symptoms like this on a 'transit' engine was when there was either something wrong with the EGR valve (which would have illuminated the MIL) or low oil levels in the engine. I'm going to check the oil in the morning but seriously doubt this is the issue. It's going in to Lookers in the morning. To avoid the "We couldn't reproduce the fault" response, I filmed the issue at standstill today. I pulled up and it stalled just before it stopped - in first, no throttle, braking to stop. I restarted again and again in neutral and first with no throttle. It stalled. This issue only occurs when revs are at idle or dropping from running speed to idle, approaching a round about for example. Not good. YouTube video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vinPIDEf3os...ature=plcp |
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28th Dec 2011 6:33pm |
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| willy eckerslike Member Since: 15 Jun 2009 Location: North yorks Posts: 1789 
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Seb any chance of trying it in low box, see if the idle jack affects it Original Member Pie n Pea Club.
110 HCPU Tipper |
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28th Dec 2011 7:12pm |
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| 110SEB Member Since: 29 Jan 2009 Location: Essex, England Posts: 1444
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Good idea Willy. I'll do that in the morning. The biggest problem is that it's temperamental. It does it sometimes and not others. It did at as I pulled up to our gates this evening and when i was reverse parking, but not as I let the engine pull the car along in first with no throttle. I'll give it a whirl in low box and film it.
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28th Dec 2011 7:30pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
Do you have a scangauge? I would be curious to know if the fuel rail pressure drops just before it stalls. Also what the MAP reading was as well as the air flow over the MAF sensor. I see from the video that the engine is at running temp by looking at the gauge? So the CHT sensor reading would be handy to know so that high coolant temp shut down is not being evoked by the EMS. Try disconnecting the EGR valve electrical connection first to see if that stops the engine cutting out. You will get a MIL and a couple of stored tested DTC's (P1402 and P1409). If the EGR is causing the issue then you won't always get a MIL light as it needs to fail the diagnostic test three times before the MIL illuminates. If it is sticking fully open then returns to closed slowly a DTC may not be registered as it has returned to the correct position before completing the test cycle, there would be evidence of this happening as untested DTC's, P0404-72 Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) control circuit range/performance actuator stuck open, and P0404-73 Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) control circuit range/performance, actuator stuck closed . The EGR can be shown to be at fault or dismissed as the cause just by unplugging it. Also does it do the self clean cycle of 5 x chukka chukkas?
Click image to enlarge If you rule out the EGR valve then it would be a case of getting live data from the EMS to see what the engine is doing just before and during the shut down to see exactly were the problem lies. Without seeing this data it is hard to see what is responsible for this shut down action, whether it is mechanical or electrical in origin. Mechanical from the fuel tank through to the LP then HP side of the pump to the fuel rail and the injectors. Electrical side from the EMS to the relevant data from a multitude of sensors through to the 10AS passive immobilizer to the charge in the battery. HTH Brian |
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28th Dec 2011 11:00pm |
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| 110SEB Member Since: 29 Jan 2009 Location: Essex, England Posts: 1444
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Brian, thank you for possibly the most comprehensive answer I have received on the forum, much appreciated
I see what you mean about the EGR. I do still get the chukka-chukka. It stalled again on the way to the stealers this morning and did it once when out with the mechanic. Thoughts seem to lean towards fuel line system. It's temperamental nature causes me to agree. I have also mentioned your theory and this caused interest and another line of enquiry. I suppose this could simply be sh*t in the fuel from the garage. I will keep you posted. I have renamed the thread to be more search friendly to users in the future who may encounter this annoying/potentially dangerous problem. |
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29th Dec 2011 10:28am |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
If it is the fuel feed that is causing the issues then I would expect to see it occurring throughout the rev range and not just at tick over. Though in hindsight a partially/blocked tank breather vent could cause issues with the low fuel shut down protocol being invoked by the EMS at idle? The VCV (Volume Control Valve) would then be opening further than the stored values to allow the demands of the EMS to maintain the CCF's set idle rpm of 800rpm. Remember that on the Puma there is no electric fuel pump to supply the LP (low pressure) side of the fuel pump with fuel as this is done solely by the pumps mechanics, and the amount of fuel allowed into the pump is controlled by an admissions valve and the VCV, which then supplies the fuel to the HP (High Pressure) side of the pump which feeds the fuel rail. The reason I asked about the fuel rail pressure is to see if the problem lies with the fuel system on the mechanical side. The only other thing that can cause the engine to stop apart from lack of fuel is the injectors firing cycle controlled by the EMS on the electrical side. So if you can discount the fuel rail pressure by it maintaining about 20 Mpa (200Bar) at tickover when the engine dies, I would then be looking at the VCV valve and the live data from the injector solenoids firing to see what exactly was the cause as the EMS controls both. Now once all this is either proved or discounted I would next be disabling the passive immobilizer to confirm this was not the issue. There have been numerous faults reported on here which can be traced back to problems associated with the passive immobilizer, so for me it would be at the top of my list in fault finding. Remember that the passive immobilizer sends a mobilization signal to the EMS which then mobilizes the injector and starter circuits allowing the vehicle to first start and then run. All this is accomplished through the key fob and a transducer coil mounted in the steering column. Again this is very easy to check as you just need to disable plip immobilize and passive immobilizer in the 10AS settings page, remembering to write the changes before exiting.
As I said earlier it could be something as simple as a bad electrical plug connection to a blocked vent or feed pipe. The only way to know for sure is to, as you have done, get it connected to a diagnostic tool and see the live data of what is happening prior to and during the shut down event. Have a read of this post from Merlin as it does have similarities to your issue, especially at the start of the problem. http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic8577.html Brian. |
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29th Dec 2011 12:39pm |
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| MK Member Since: 28 Aug 2008 Location: Santiago Posts: 2422  
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My 2 pence. I got the same when geeting a bit of air on the fuel feeding line. Although normal at higher revs, it stalled at idle. Puma 110" SW
............................................................. Earth first. Other planets later |
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29th Dec 2011 12:46pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
Do you know what caused the air to get in in the first place? Did you change the fuel filter?
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29th Dec 2011 12:51pm |
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| MK Member Since: 28 Aug 2008 Location: Santiago Posts: 2422
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Long story, but I broke the filter holder
. So I had to fit a pair of small filters (one each way)to keep moving. The air was getting inside thru the tank-to-filter pipe, as it was a 9.9mm filter and the line is 10mm. So maybe it is worth to check the feeding line. Puma 110" SW
............................................................. Earth first. Other planets later |
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29th Dec 2011 12:59pm |
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| Lorryman100 Member Since: 01 Oct 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2686 |
Yep, makes sense that a breakage in the fuel feed would allow air into the system unless properly bled. I am taking it from the original TP's description that he has not changed or damaged any of the fuel feed pipes/filter and did not bleed the system. I would expect the dealer to do a pressure test of the fuel feed lines anyway which would highlight any leak.
By the way, ingenious repair to get you going again. Stored the info for future use incase the need arises
Brian |
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29th Dec 2011 1:33pm |
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