Farmerben wrote:

That’s pretty much what the Farmers Weekly review said. Not sorting the HMRC status out killed the UK commercial market for the Grenadier from the start.

I’d still put money on my new Defender doing more work than the majority of Grenadiers ever will.

Farmerben wrote:

What market/purpose is the Grenadier designed for and can those markets afford it and are they the ones buying it?

Chicken Drumstick wrote:

Farmerben wrote:

That’s pretty much what the Farmers Weekly review said. Not sorting the HMRC status out killed the UK commercial market for the Grenadier from the start.

I’d still put money on my new Defender doing more work than the majority of Grenadiers ever will.

To be fair, that isn’t something that Ineos have any control of. So not really fair blaming them. The only thing they could do is make a physically lighter version to allow a 1 tonne payload within the 3500kg gross weight limit. But that is probably a lot easier said than done.

Chicken Drumstick wrote:

Farmerben wrote:

What market/purpose is the Grenadier designed for and can those markets afford it and are they the ones buying it?

Does it need a purpose?

Quote:

I also fail to understand why people persist in comparing the Grenadier with the current Defender, since they are as chalk and cheese. Utterly different vehicles for utterly different purposes and markets.

Farmerben wrote:

Chicken Drumstick wrote:

Farmerben wrote:

That’s pretty much what the Farmers Weekly review said. Not sorting the HMRC status out killed the UK commercial market for the Grenadier from the start.

I’d still put money on my new Defender doing more work than the majority of Grenadiers ever will.

To be fair, that isn’t something that Ineos have any control of. So not really fair blaming them. The only thing they could do is make a physically lighter version to allow a 1 tonne payload within the 3500kg gross weight limit. But that is probably a lot easier said than done.

They absolutely do have control over it. They knew the specs they needed to build to for it to qualify as a commercial the same as other commercial vehicle manufacturers do. They instead decided to build an overengineered lifestyle 4x4 (which is essentially exactly what the new Defender is).

Ianb wrote:

Personally (and ignorantly) I don't think any vehicle needs a purpose, but from a business point of view, a target market is always quite important.

Many times with vehicles I've heard the term "identity crisis" being batted about and I don't see why it's not applicable here. But obviously I am not the target market, I just can't see who it could be other than perhaps - Horsey folk who want that country style vehicle, or big smoke city folk who live in the country who want the same style, or maybe others? I don't know really.

I think the target market is fairly obvious tbh. Someone who wants a modern "proper" 4x4 with a rugged build and native off road ability, not needing to rely on modern traction systems. This could be for overlanding, running about, a Defender replacement, an alternative to a G-Wagon, livestyle or a mariad of other reasons. Don't get me wrong, I'd much preferred to see them priced more in the £35-50k bracket, but they aren't. And I suspect in many ways they will probably sell as many at £70 as they would at £50k, but make considerably more ROI.

And who do you think vehicles like the Ford Bronco, Jeep Wrangler, Mercedes G-Class, Ford Ranger Raptor, Chevy ZR2, Ram TRX, 70 Series Land Cruiser, F150 Raptor, Tacoma TRD Pro, Jeep Gladiator and a host of other purpose built off road focused 4x4s are aimed at? They are all in a potential "similar" price category to the Grenadier. And I'd suggest that almost anyone considering any of these vehicles is a valid potential Grenadier customer.

Not every motoring enthusiast with a few quid in the bank goes and buys a BMW M2 or a Porsche. Many like their vehicles off road capable.

While on this note, who do you think spanks £50-100k on an old model Defender? No matter how you dress it up they simply are not worth that. But lots of people very willing to hand over the cash.



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spudfan wrote:

orwhat Jim Ratcliffe thought people wanted. He probably read on various forums

Not sure I can see Jim Ratcliffe frequenting any forums if I'm honest. And certainly not for market research

spudfan wrote:

One issue I do have is how the vehicle has progressed from planning to introduction. The initial plan was to have it sold in agricultural suppliers premises with a trip to your local BMW garage for warranty work. Well that part of the plan did not come to fruition. Over here you can purchase a Grenadier from one agent,

Chicken Drumstick wrote:

Ianb wrote:

Personally (and ignorantly) I don't think any vehicle needs a purpose, but from a business point of view, a target market is always quite important.

Many times with vehicles I've heard the term "identity crisis" being batted about and I don't see why it's not applicable here. But obviously I am not the target market, I just can't see who it could be other than perhaps - Horsey folk who want that country style vehicle, or big smoke city folk who live in the country who want the same style, or maybe others? I don't know really.

I think the target market is fairly obvious tbh. Someone who wants a modern "proper" 4x4 with a rugged build and native off road ability, not needing to rely on modern traction systems. This could be for overlanding, running about, a Defender replacement, an alternative to a G-Wagon, livestyle or a mariad of other reasons. Don't get me wrong, I'd much preferred to see them priced more in the £35-50k bracket, but they aren't. And I suspect in many ways they will probably sell as many at £70 as they would at £50k, but make considerably more ROI.

And who do you think vehicles like the Ford Bronco, Jeep Wrangler, Mercedes G-Class, Ford Ranger Raptor, Chevy ZR2, Ram TRX, 70 Series Land Cruiser, F150 Raptor, Tacoma TRD Pro, Jeep Gladiator and a host of other purpose built off road focused 4x4s are aimed at? They are all in a potential "similar" price category to the Grenadier. And I'd suggest that almost anyone considering any of these vehicles is a valid potential Grenadier customer.

Not every motoring enthusiast with a few quid in the bank goes and buys a BMW M2 or a Porsche. Many like their vehicles off road capable.

While on this note, who do you think spanks £50-100k on an old model Defender? No matter how you dress it up they simply are not worth that. But lots of people very willing to hand over the cash.



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Fair enough and true, I was trying not to be too judgmental in suggesting it's purely designed as an ego extension despite not being marketed as such. Or rather, I was searching for the alternative to that and mulling over who it could appeal too. I think my view was - if you want a new clean vehicle that you could use for towing your caravan, horse box, or business wagon (food truck/coffee stall etc), then there are surely much better vehicles on the market which will provide you with all the comforts of a modern vehicle (such as those in the Grenadier) but with far better aerodynamics, mpg etc etc....But if you're madly in love with a Defender, then why not take your 60-70k wallet, buy a defender for a fraction of it, and get it tip top...? Not suggesting someone needs to take my opinion on the matter, people can do what they wish with their money, again, just trying to uncover the thought process.

As for overlanding etc, I'd be interested to know how the warranty works... There are very few Defenders on this forum and around (that I've seen) that are standard, now all/most being second hand it makes sense. Last I was aware, once you start tinkering with things you run the risk of voiding your warranty, so anyone with any serious ideas of overlanding may have to either run that risk, or hold off modifying until warranty runs out - Or, as many have done, buy 2nd hand and get modding.

Just seems there are better alternatives, but I'm no expert.... also have never driven one, nor had a good ol' look around them

I like the idea that it's not a copy and paste from every other modern vehicle out there - it has the same sort of style as the original Defender and to some extent it probably is the original defender, just better engineered with todays tech and maybe it's not really as expensive as it could justifiably be. Also I did see some pics of one with its switch panel on the ceiling and that kinda looks fun

I'd love to see how they wear through time with their own quirks and problems etc, they might be a fantastic 2nd hand vehicle in the future. The Yeti - 110 Camper https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic90308.html
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