LR Nuts wrote:

mse wrote:

.....

I hate driving the tractor on road with the forks on the loader that will do some serious damage

to driver with forks on a tractor, don't the forks have to be at a legal height ?? like well above a vehicle height.

Nope. And it would depend on the vehicle in question too.

Having forks up high present other risks, such as lorries or buses hitting them as they pull in front of you.

If you have a loader like this:

Click image to enlarge

Visibility is massively reduced with the boom raised, much safer to have it in a lowered position for road use.

LR Nuts wrote:

mse wrote:

.....

I hate driving the tractor on road with the forks on the loader that will do some serious damage

to driver with forks on a tractor, don't the forks have to be at a legal height ?? like well above a vehicle height.

Quote:

Mike, I sort of see what you are saying. But if you really cared about pedestrian safety or other road users, you'd drive the slowest, lightest vehicle you could with the most friendly front end. Or not even drive at all. So even driving any 4x4/SUV or Land Rover product would make you a hypocrite. Not saying you are of course.

More modern cars, whatever they are, have improved pedestrian and crash standards, of which the original defender had about -10 ... but as I mentioned the The a-bars on the original defenders (soft ones) actually improved frontal protection.

ISTR the Discovery sport has pedestrian airbags for frontal impacts and there is massive difference between a type approved compliant vehicle, with ever focus on standards (im sure some cars are worse than 4x4 for pedestrians) and adding a chunk of metal on the front of anything. What i suppose im would say is about not making something worse? Mike

Chicken Drumstick wrote:

LR Nuts wrote:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-bars

Brexit - but still under EU legislation ???

But have you actually read what the page says? Most people on forums do not. they just make it up and say what they want.

I'm not a solicitor and I don't know the backing regulations, but that .gov page clearly does not tell the whole picture.

Lets look at it and break down what it says.....


It is not illegal for vehicles to be fitted with bull bars








That should be very easy to understand, they are not ILLEGAL!


the department would not recommend their fitment

They key word is "recommend"..... i.e. it is not a law, just guidance.


However, since 25 May 2007, it has been an offence for bull bars that have not been approved as compliant with those safety standards to be sold.

This is the most confusing sentence. Clearly it is not telling us everything as the paragraph above it has already said that bullbars are not illegal.

I suspect it is meaning as part of Type Approval or dealer fitment on NEW vehicles. As car makers did stop selling their vehicles with optional bullbars and introduced those soft rubber type ones. I would love to see the actual legislation for this, but my hunch is very much that it is driving at Type Approval, not aftermarket modifications or road worthyness.

We can see very clearly there is more going on here. If that statement was 100% true as written, it would be utter nonsense and crazy. Read it again and see if you can spot what it is actually saying.

Here is the wording again:

However, since 25 May 2007, it has been an offence for bull bars that have not been approved as compliant with those safety standards to be sold.

There is a very specific key word......


"sold"

It doesn't not saying about about fitting, owning or using. It specifically says "sold". Which again I'm sure is driving at car manufactures and Type Approval for official accessories.

Restrictions on items being sold are very limited in the UK, usually around guns or drugs. It would make no sense at all that a bullbar would be a restricted item in the UK. Certainly there is no licensing structure to authorise people to sell bullbars. And it would be utter madness to think a bullbar is in the same category as a machine gun legally.

Again we can clearly see there is far more going than this simple statement on the dot gov site. If it really was true that the selling of bullbars is illegal. Then that would include bullbars for off road only vehicles, quad bike, even toys....... obviously this is not the case. So we can conclude it is not accurate to simple say bullbars are illegal in the UK.

To further this, again if the selling part is truly illegal, which is the only thing that pages says is. Then there are loads of companies in the UK importing and selling bullbars in the UK. If true, this would be an open and shut case against them. So why aren't they being prosecuted and shutdown? The logical conclusion is that they are not therefore illegal and this guidance is just misleading.

Again looking at the wording that it is the selling that is illegal. This would, based on the actual wording mean that selling a 2nd hand bullbar from 1990 would also be illegal. Which is odd, as I'm sure I've seen bullbars for sale on this very site. And I'm sure Defedner2.net is not endorsing illegal activitiy.

More evidence to support these conclusions are. Most insurance companies will happily accept a bullbar as a modification to a modern vehicle. I think online comparison sites like Compare the Market even have bullbars specifically listed. If it was a clear open and shut case that these are illegal, no insurance company is going to willing accept and document that they are insuring your vehicle for road use with a bullbar fitted. Yet they do......

Lastly and almost as importantly, you would need to have a definition of what a bullbar actually is. That page certainly doesn't offer anything up. And if you sit back and think about it, it is actually very hard to separate heavy duty winch bumpers or tube bumpers from bullbars.


So unless someone can find or locate the supporting Regulations behind the guidance or some Case Law supporting the conclusion that bullbars are illegal in the UK, we can only go on the guidance on that page, which is 100% crystal clear in saying....


It is not illegal for vehicles to be fitted with bull bars


That is the only conclusion you can logically make from the information on that page.


And before the if buts and maybe's follow.


Remember paragraph 2 says it is illegal only to sell a bullbar. Meaning you can legally buy one, the seller would be the one at risk of persecution. But it says nothing about fitting or owning the bullbar, only that they would prefer you didn't fit them (recommendation...).[/b]

Chicken Drumstick wrote:

Ianh wrote:

The government states “Approved devices will carry an indelible ‘e’ mark (for example: e1 01 1471)” so if it does not have an ‘e’ mark then it’s not approved for use in the UK.

As per my post above. It does not say that on the linked page to the dot gov site.

It says:


Click image to enlarge

"to be sold"

not "not approved for use in the UK."

Different words and different meanings. Unless you have a reference to support "not approved for use
in the UK."

cyberhusky wrote:

Is this bullbar from Rhino4x4 legal in EU countries?



Click image to enlarge

https://www.rhino4x4.com.au/products/103-l...t-bar.html

nitram17 wrote:

cyberhusky wrote:

Is this bullbar from Rhino4x4 legal in EU countries?

Click image to enlarge
https://www.rhino4x4.com.au/products/103-l...t-bar.html

They must have very small bulls in Europe!

nitram17 wrote:

In reality the key will be can you get your truck insured declaring the bull bar ?

Should be no problem. As said, places like Compare the Market have it as a selectable option and you will get returned results. I also has no issues declaring one on my insurance and having documented. All odd things if they are truly illegal.

nitram17 wrote:

I really don't think your experience with bull bars is representative of the experience of most defender owners especially if your truck was registered after 2007.

Click image to enlarge

Lightwater wrote:

nitram17 wrote:

cyberhusky wrote:

Is this bullbar from Rhino4x4 legal in EU countries?

Click image to enlarge
https://www.rhino4x4.com.au/products/103-l...t-bar.html

They must have very small bulls in Europe!

Or balls!

That's an Australian car number plate, but it is Victoria, so all they have to deal with is "cabbages" (Colloquial name calling for Victorians, Cabbage Gardeners!), better leave it at that or someone will call the NSW colloquial name (a tyre inflator fart kit will finish off us).



For a proper bull bar, a few decades ago, someone couldn't start their car. Words back & forth between a number of us helping.

I mentioned, is the car in park or neutral, they said it was, was the answer.

Another helper had his car facing the car to be started. Tried jump starting to no avail.

Then he tried the starter motor.

Bang... the car plowed into the donor car. Fortunately no one was standing between the 2 cars.

Some reasonable damage to the car being started, but no damage to the donor car other than a minor chip in the timber railway sleeper he had bolted on the front of his car as a bull bar.

Impressive & cheap replaceable stuff.

 Eiger Grey MY23 D250 SE with bits. Known as Noddy.

Chicken Drumstick wrote:

nitram17 wrote:

I really don't think your experience with bull bars is representative of the experience of most defender owners especially if your truck was registered after 2007.

Click image to enlarge