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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5038   
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I would agree with you to a point
I find TR can be better in certain modes than others and there are time manual intervention (within TR) is better - but the system as a whole is far better than the old school lock a diff The problem people have had for a while is driving with the electronic systems like constant throttle so the car can work out the problem Driver skill is required within the TR, but it will get the average or inexperienced user further than without it (which is a pain when you then need to rescue them  ) Mike |
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3rd Aug 2023 2:40pm |
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| Chicken Drumstick Member Since: 17 Aug 2020 Location: Near MK Posts: 751
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If this is truly the case, doesn't it make a complete mockery of having a Terrain Response system with selectable modes anyway? They could have skipped the past 19 years of TR 
BTW - how does it know what to do with the throttle? I can see the benefit of making it sharper or duller. I'm not quite seeing how TR2 can really know though? Not being ignorant to tech either, I'm a software engineer. But I just can't see how TR2 can know what you are wanting or what the terrain is really like.
Not convinced it does. It seems to confuse the F out of most people. And even when you select a mode that seems like it might be right, it can make the vehicle horrid to drive or fail to work as you'd expect. Like killing the throttle, which is hugely annoying.
Not trying to be difficult. But I suspect what you are comparing is a vehicle with traction aids (maybe a locking diff too) to an open diff'd vehicle with no traction aids. So nothing at all directly related to Terrain Response. |
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3rd Aug 2023 3:07pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753 
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My D240 110 had TR2, my new 90 D250 doesn’t have it - the TR2 is configurable to an extent, TR is not. TR also doesn’t include All Terrain progress Conttol - not the I ever used it for anything other than stopping the car from loosing the TR setting after switching off the engine like it does with TR where the TR defaults to Comfort every time you shut down the engine. Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come
2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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3rd Aug 2023 3:29pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2655 
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It knows what to do with the throttle because you’ve told it what kind of terrain/driving you’re dealing with. So for rock crawl it provides a very smooth throttle pickup and holds a low gear for maximum control at slow speed, for example. I’ve not got TR2 so haven’t used the auto mode but I suspect it looks at wheel speeds, slip, and angles to estimate terrain type. Some people are confused by TR, but that’s no surprise. Some people are confused by roundabouts. You’re making out like it’s a hard to understand system and I agree that it is complex but my point is that for the majority of people it will do a good job of getting them up a track or whatever and will do it without them having to think about when to engage the difflocks, what gears to use etc. And yes my 110 has a locking rear diff whereas the old 90 does not. But that diff and its control is part of the terrain response system, along with the traction control so it’s definitely attributable to TR. A manual locking diff alone would have made a big difference too but not as much as the full package. |
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3rd Aug 2023 6:18pm |
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| Chicken Drumstick Member Since: 17 Aug 2020 Location: Near MK Posts: 751
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Thanks, do you know what is configurable on TR2? I'm guessing you could essentially setup your own profile? Or is it just allowing you to manually change settings within a single Terrain Mode? |
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4th Aug 2023 11:23am |
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| Chicken Drumstick Member Since: 17 Aug 2020 Location: Near MK Posts: 751
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lol, think we were at cross purposes. I was referring to TR2, as someone else said the 'auto' mode is what makes it so great. I know what the other modes do pretty much. But I'm not clear on how the auto mode can really know what your intentions are. Although if it is as good as claimed, it does make a mockery of having one with the manual settings....
But it is hard to understand, unless you know what each mode actually does. And stopping and reading a large instruction manual is probably not the answer. As it probably doesn't tell you all the details you'd want anyway. You then need to know how to apply it to the terrain at hand. Some examples: -Was at Eastnor the other year driving the new Defender on an Experience day. Think there were 5 or 6 vehicles in the group. The 4 had the optional AT's, 2 on road tyres, including the Disco 5 following us with another staff member in. The ground was surprisingly wet and muddy. I know the tracks have a firm base to stop people really getting stuck. But one Defender did get stopped. We were told to use the Mud & Ruts mode, which if you look at the terrain at Eastnor would be a sensible description. However, Mud & Ruts kills the throttle pedal. And made the vehicle horrible to drive, on road tyres it was needing to scrabble quite a bit. I believe turning off the DSC helps, no idea why it doesn't do this for you (my Jimny does and it cost only a faction of the price!). So you need to be an expert in the system to know to turn this off. Alternatively I happened to know that using the Sand mode allowed more wheel slip, so I had switched to that as it made the vehicle so much nicer to drive. Which is exactly my point, it was my own extended knowledge that allowed a better mode selection. I'd guess most people wouldn't have known to do this. I digress however. The vehicle that got stopped was in a small dip in the track that was wet and muddy. And as soon as they tried to exit the dip the wheels span and killed the throttle. At which point the driver lifted off and stopped. They tried maybe 8 or 10 times with the same result and was about to get out of the vehicle. Had they been on their own they would likely have been stuck and abandoned the vehicle. The thing is, had they been in a 300Tdi 110 on similar tyres, you'd just have driven straight through no issues at all. Now don't get me wrong, this was driver error that they had firstly got stopped and then been unable to drive out. But the Terrain System was the cause of them not knowing what to do. Had they had it in a mode where it didn't kill the throttle as soon as a wheel spun, they likely would have been fine. In the end after another 2 or 3 attempts with the instructor walking along side giving instructions they drove out of it. But it was a great example of Terrain Response not being very intuitive unless you knew exactly what it was doing (or not doing) and what you needed to do in terms of the terrain. -Another example, a number of years back a mate had an L320 RRS. Went to go and see another friend ploughing, which meant driving over some of the ploughed furrows to gain access. Raised the ride height and again selected Mud & Ruts. I know the Defender is newer, but the basic modes are the same. This time traction wasn't an issue, but the throttle still was, it was as jerky as f*** over a ploughed field. Nothing wrong with the vehicle, it was working fine. I said to put it into the snow & ice mode to tame the throttle, which he did and was amazed at the results. Much better to drive over such undulating terrain. But there wasn't a snow flake insight! So again, needs an operator to have deep in-depth knowledge of how the system works and what the actual terrain is. You can't just match the symbol up with what the ground looks like. -On Youtube there are loads of videos of LR3's and LR4's struggling in snowy conditions such as those you get in places like Colorado. Again it is because the vehicle kills the throttle and momentum in the selected mode. You need to know to do more things to make the vehicle work in those conditions. I'm not knocking any of the TRs abilities. I actually love settings and such like and being able to control things. But it makes the vehicles far more difficult to get into the right mode for a given condition a lot of the time. Think about it. A traditional Defender has 1 off road mode. Low diff lock. As a driver you have a choice of 1, so as long as you make a choice, it will be the correct mode for the condition. The new Defender has how many modes? Plus additional DSC and air suspension modes. What is there something like 7 or 8 TR modes these days? Add the multipliers of the DSC and EAS and you have a potential for something like 24 different modes you could use. So chances of picking the right one as a novice is far more unlikely.
You can have traction control and locking diffs without Terrain Response, so it isn't really a direct comparison. It was the traction aids that made the real difference. Not specifically Terrain Response. |
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4th Aug 2023 1:22pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2655
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I suspect we are going to have to agree to disagree on the TR complexity and whether it is easier or not for most people. What I will agree with you on though is the cutting the power feature of many of the modes - DSC is not disabled by default, no doubt because of safety fears.
With regard to my comparison, I was comparing a modern LR to an older one and all modern LRs have terrain response. The TR system is what enabled it to be so effortless. I could put a rear locking diff in my 90 and it would have achieved most of the same effect in terms of the vehicle being able to cross the terrain, but TR will lock and unlock the diffs as required, partially lock in a way to reduce shock loading to the drivetrain, and will unlock to allow me to steer. It does all this automatically and all the driver has to do is choose a line and press the throttle. That is the additional benefit over just a manual locker. |
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4th Aug 2023 2:30pm |
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| Chicken Drumstick Member Since: 17 Aug 2020 Location: Near MK Posts: 751
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Again, just to say I'm not against TR, just that it is more complex. Vehicles without TR seem to be fine off road and have been for 70 years+
Do remember, not all TR systems have locking axle diffs. In fact most of them don't. So it is really only about the resolution of the tcs wheel slip, centre diff locking ratio and what it does with the throttle. And being brutally honest the Land Rover TCS is some of the best there is and has been since the D3. Very little wheel slip required to make it work compared to other systems. But that aside, if you had had a Td5 (1998+) or Puma Defender (2007+) with traction control, I'm betting it would have gone where you new one has with just as much ease and only one movement of the low diff lock lever. |
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4th Aug 2023 3:24pm |
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| LR Nuts Member Since: 10 Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 1140
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when purchasing a second user vehicle, how do you know if it has 'Off Road Pack' ?
Is it all in the software ? |
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4th Aug 2023 3:25pm |
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