 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > HELP! No drive, no gears, grinding sound |
 
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| Learningasigo Member Since: 30 Nov 2023 Location: Midlands Posts: 28   
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The video below, taken from another post, is near identical to the issue I had, except the diff actually goes into position. I can get it to go into gear, quite nicely with the clutch, but no drive, just an initial increase in the grinding sound.
It was grinding and sounding unhealthy both out of gear and diff in neutral clutch pedal released at the end but at the start was only on releasing the clutch. https://1drv.ms/v/s!ArkezczBP5KygU6feeEiRvw1YKA%0AD?e=qMv88 |
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26th Jan 2024 7:41pm |
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| Learningasigo Member Since: 30 Nov 2023 Location: Midlands Posts: 28
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Thanks for your advice. Quick check and will ask the garage if they can fit an uprated/upgraded one.
Plenty on the forum but this is the one I think has been suggested: https://ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/produ...t/#reviews Any top tips to pass to the engineer? I am sure he has done quite a few! |
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26th Jan 2024 8:09pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17391 
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A clutch that new should still be in perfect condition, and my suggestion would be that if when the transfer box is out it is apparent that it is the output adaptor shaft that has failed, then the clutch is left alone. I would only disturb the main gearbox and clutch if it become apparent that the output adaptor shaft is not the problem and it is not clear what the problem is (which I consider to be a highly unlikely circumstance from what you have described). With the t-box out there is also a perfect opportunity to lubricate and exercise the H/L and difflock mechanisms to make sure that they are free.
The most likely explanation for the output adaptor shaft failures is a misalignment between the main and transfer gearboxes due to machining tolerances on the adaptor shaft housing. The mileage yours has done, assuming that it is the original which has failed, suggests that it is not too bad (these things have been known to fail in under 1k miles). It is also likely that the splines were assembled bone dry in the factory. If so it may be that standard parts lubricated copiously with molybdenum disulphide grease will last a lot longer than the one that's failed, but if you want a more enduring solution fit one of the upgrade options. Of these, there are currently three different offerings. The original offering was the modified coupling from Ashcroft Transmissions. This is essentially the same as the original design, but modified to allow a small amount of oil to migrate from the main gearbox into the coupling in order to prevent the coupling lubricant from drying out. There is also a seal added to the coupling to keep this oil inside the joint. A major attraction of this design is that, if fitted to a vehicle with a small amount of misalignment, it will still allow an element of "flex" in the coupling, which is likely to be beneficial. I have never heard so far of an Ashcroft coupling failing. https://ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/produ...shaft-kit/ The second product on the market was the LOF upgraded shaft. The design with this one is that the coupling is entirely eliminated and a single rigid adaptor shaft is fitted in place of the original two-piece item. Personally (as an engineer) I have a couple of concerns with this design, specifically that the attachment to the gearbox is a little less robust than the original (and the part of the shaft attached to the MT82 does secure some of the internals of the gearbox), and being a rigid one-piece shaft there is the concern that in the case of misalignment the "flex" in the coupling is not longer helping, with the result that something else (possibly much harder to replace) will be wearing faster instead. Having said that there are many satisfied customers with this shaft and I have not heard of a single failure, so perhaps I am overthinking the mechanics! https://lofclutches.com/shop/clutches/defe...nder-tdci/ The most recent alternative is the product from IRB developments. This is a shaft in two pieces (like the original) but (unlike the original) the two pieces are rigidly bolted together at a keyed or fingered joint, instead of relying on the splines of the original LR design. This means that the attachment to the MT82 can be as the original part, but the result is still a rigid shaft so there is still the possibility of something else wearing if installed on a vehicle with a severe alignment problem (which would be manifest by a high rate of failure of the original shaft). An attraction of the IRB part is that with the kit comes a tool to hold the bit that bolts on the gearbox whilst the setscrew is torqued down, which neither of the other kits can include by virtue of their design. https://irbdevelopments.com/defender-mt82-hd-adaptor-shaft-kit/ Of the three options, my personal choice would be the Ashcroft shaft if I was fitting it to a vehicle which had had a lot of failures (since this suggests a more severe alignment issue and hence some flex would be advantageous) or the IRB shaft if I was replacing the shaft on a vehicle which either had a high mileage failure or on which the shaft was being replaced because of high mileage wear rather than failure. This however is more because I like the engineering of the IRB kit than because I have any concerns about the Ashcroft one! As it happens, I have an Ashcroft kit stashed away in case my 2007 Defender has a failure, but amazingly mine is still the original coupling and has now done around 275,000 miles. It was greased very thoroughly about 125k miles ago, but I am still surprised it has done this well. I think it indicates that I was very lucky with the tolerances on the housing. |
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26th Jan 2024 8:15pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20382
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I’m not an expert, but I’d tend to go with the direction that if it’s a factory output shaft that’s had a very very long life without issues then stick with it and replace genuine and lube as alignment isn’t likely to be a particular problem.
If it becomes and issue or low mileage, then alignment may be an issue then upgrade. I agree with Blackwolf that Ashcroft is very very good, their quality is impeccable. Is there a particular defined year that was affected by this? Mine has always been fine like Blackwolf’s, but is a similar year. Was this an issue that appears with later models? $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R 🇬🇧🏴🏴🏴🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪 |
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26th Jan 2024 8:42pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17391
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There's no evidence to suggest any correlation between vehicle age and failure, and it was a well-known failure by 2010, in fact I was warned about it by a friendly main dealer who was at that time developing a modification to fit nipples to allow routine greasing.
How many miles on your 90 now Steve? |
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26th Jan 2024 9:46pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1411 
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All years of Puma are affected, 2007 to 2016. Forum survey here, a few posts down. https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic62521...;start=120 |
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26th Jan 2024 10:23pm |
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| Learningasigo Member Since: 30 Nov 2023 Location: Midlands Posts: 28
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Great video showing the original output shaft and LOF upgrade. Alongside a bit of South African humour:
?si=9gDSKqHAfDVYIbSD |
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27th Jan 2024 8:03am |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3414  
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If you go for Ashcroft, or as a matter of fact even genuine, the bolt that locks the cup to the gearbox mainshaft needs to be torqued to 240Nm and then backed off again and re torqued to 180Nm. This is an important step as it ensures that the cup is fully bedded onto the mainshaft splines (they should be an interference fit). 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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27th Jan 2024 8:17am |
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| Leamreject Member Since: 19 Dec 2020 Location: Middle Earth - Leamington Spa Posts: 970  
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Mine did the same, clunking for ages and I didn’t know what the problem was, to be honest it did it for so long I thought it was just normal. Then ironically it failed completely outside Town and Country Landrover, what are the chances of that!. They fitted the LOF single billet replacement which transformed the drive
 Ride like you stole it!!
If I’m not on a bike it’s because only a 4x4 will do… 2011 2.4 Puma 90 HT |
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27th Jan 2024 8:29am |
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| Learningasigo Member Since: 30 Nov 2023 Location: Midlands Posts: 28
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I think I will go for the LOF - looks significantly simpler to install and no additional spec tools required.
Anyone fitted one that can pass on any installation tips? Hopefully I can ask the garage to install one as the price isn’t much different from the LR one. |
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27th Jan 2024 9:43am |
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| andy63 Member Since: 30 Jun 2023 Location: north east Posts: 516
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I fitted a LOF output shaft..
Not that the original had failed (it did look dried out mind) but I had the boxes out to do the clutch.. I went for the lof because of its simplicity.. But I'm not sure what the best option is if you have a failure.. If its an allingment issue that causes the wear then if that can't be rectified then not sure that won't be an ongoing issue.. Only time Wii tell I suppose.. My original shaft  Click image to enlarge The lof one fitted Click image to enlarge |
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27th Jan 2024 10:37am |
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| Leamreject Member Since: 19 Dec 2020 Location: Middle Earth - Leamington Spa Posts: 970
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Town & Country in Cubbington Ride like you stole it!! If I’m not on a bike it’s because only a 4x4 will do… 2011 2.4 Puma 90 HT |
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27th Jan 2024 11:08am |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20382
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96k It’s running just nicely right now, service due imminently. 
I have had it lubed and checked properly and they said it was A1, so has the flywheel always been. So mine was just the Sachs clutch to go in and later 2.2 Slave. The adaptor shaft splines have always been greased from about 42k to date, but there hasn’t been any issue. Mind you mine has a fairly easy life, I don’t do very much heavy off road and I don’t tow over 1T, but typically half that regularly. It would be interesting to know if those affected regularly heavy tow? Or if there is any difference between 90 and 110, though there doesn’t seem to be any sign of any particular pattern other than some poor alignment and lack of assembly lube from the factory. $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R 🇬🇧🏴🏴🏴🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪 |
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27th Jan 2024 4:41pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1411
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90, 110 and 130 have all been known to fail.
One notable vehicle that failed early was a beautiful 90 SW owned by Pickles in Australia. (Hi Pickles, if you're reading!) That was a lightly used 90, never used for towing if I recall, never used off road, never used heavily, not tuned or abused. Probably the lightest use any Defender could expect to see. It failed early, on a road trip. 2 years old, 41,000Km, 26,500miles. That was a massive pointer that showed no matter how the vehicle was used, or the weight it carried, it could fail. Towards the other end of the use spectrum, Blackwolf has a 110 that runs heavy and tows. It has lasted 275,000 miles on the original shaft (as noted yesterday above). Good luck with that one, may it keep going many more miles. |
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27th Jan 2024 8:44pm |
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