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TomB8



Member Since: 17 Nov 2022
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 115

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi HT Arles Blue
Shaking at 65-70mph after replacing bushes
Hello all,

I hope someone may be able to help me out with what I may have done wrong, or what to be looking at next. I have done a fair amount of reading on the subject, but I'm fairly sure it's not my tyres and from the descriptions given by others of issues, fairly sure its not swivel preload.

This weekend I replaced the steering drop arm, the ball joint on the arm that goes from the drop arm to the hub (sorry forgotten the name) and radius arm bushes on my 1994 300tdi 110. Took it for a test drive to admire my success in completing the job and found that the car starts shaking at 65-70mph. I wouldn't say it is 'death wobble' as the car remains quite controllable and the steering wheel isn't wrenching around. I have not pushed the car much beyond 70 to see if the wobble clears for obvious reasons.

In case my methodology of changing the parts is a contributing factor:

- I did not jack the car up, I just took one radius arm off at a time. Putting them back on required a ratchet strap to the bumper and then outrigger to align the holes in the axle.

- New nuts and bolts used for the bushes. Bushes were replaced with ****part blue poly type. They were quite easy to put in place and it does look like there is a slight gap between the bush and bracket on the passenger side, but all torqued to 200nm and rechecked after 30-45mins.

- The drop arm took a while to get off with the proper puller, big impact driver and some pretty gentle tapping on the arm to assist.

- Removed and replaced the steering drag link, unchanged except new split pins.

- The steering wheel is slightly off centre now, so need to adjust the ball joint I fitted, but I wouldn't have thought this would contribute to the issue I am having.


I did not replace the panhard rod bushes as they seem fine (stuck a bar in there and minimal movement back and forth, no movement up and down).

I did put a set of barely used 2nd hand wheels and tyres on 600 miles ago, but they have been balanced as far as I can tell and had no trouble with vibration until now.

Does anyone have any ideas of what I can check or should be looking for, please?

May thanks in advance,

Tom
Post #982228 12th Feb 2023 10:36pm
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Mossberg



Member Since: 29 Feb 2020
Location: Lancs
Posts: 553

United Kingdom 1993 Defender 90 300 Tdi HT Aintree Green
Do the easy and cheap test first - swap the front wheels for the back and take it for a drive.
Post #982235 13th Feb 2023 12:18am
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TomB8



Member Since: 17 Nov 2022
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 115

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi HT Arles Blue
Mossberg, thank you for responding. I will try swapping them over, but had (perhaps incorrectly) discounted wheel balancing given that they have not been touched.

Could the worn radius bushes and ball joints have damped a wheel balancing issue or do wheels sometime just go out of balance?
Post #982238 13th Feb 2023 12:41am
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landy andy



Member Since: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Ware, Herts
Posts: 5663

2006 Defender 110 Td5 USW Zermatt Silver
I think this is your problem.

New nuts and bolts used for the bushes. Bushes were replaced with ****part blue poly type. They were quite easy to put in place and it does look like there is a slight gap between the bush and bracket on the passenger side, but all torqued to 200nm and rechecked after 30-45mins.

They should require some effort and be a tight interference fit, not loose on the hole.
Post #982253 13th Feb 2023 8:27am
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bear100



Member Since: 22 Mar 2010
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1913

Wales 2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Santorini Black
Do you have spacers fitted?

If so just make sure they are not fouling your wheel, you will notice marks on alloys.

I had the same issue 2016 Range Rover Autobiography 4.4 TDV8
2010 110 XS Utility 2.4TDCI
2010 Range Rover Sport TDV8 (gone)
2007 Discovery HSE TDV6 (gone)
1993 110 csw 200 tdi (gone)
1994 90 HT 300 tdi (gone)
1994 discovery 300tdi (gone)
90 hybrid 3.5 v8 (gone)
Range rover bobtail 3.5 v8 (gone)
Post #982258 13th Feb 2023 8:49am
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TomB8



Member Since: 17 Nov 2022
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 115

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi HT Arles Blue
Hi Andy, Thank you for your thoughts, I think my description is a little poor having read it back, the radius arm brackets have been squeezed in by the nuts/bolts to match the width of the metal insert. I was referring to a slight gap next to the poly section of the bush.

Should the whole of the bush be an interference fit, or just the metal insert?


bear100, good thought, but no spacers fitted.
Post #982264 13th Feb 2023 9:48am
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markb110



Member Since: 22 May 2010
Location: Guildford
Posts: 2620

England 2002 Defender 90 Td5 HT Epsom Green
I changed my dampers a couple of years ago.

Straight after there was a slight shimmy that was not there before.

Popped down the rabbit hole of swapping tyres (made it worse), Panhard rod and a couple of other things.

I wasn’t using the 90 much at the time so just put up with it.

Last year it suddenly did what you described whilst on the A3 and would calm down at 45mph.

Took it into my local specialists, described everything that I had done and experienced and they said swivel pins.

Which is what it was. I also had them fit the Gwyn Lewis drop arm kit as well and since then it’s been rock solid.

So at the very least, jack the front up and take off both wheels, disconnect the various parts off the swivel housing so that there is no drag then move the hubs by hand. If floppy (matron) that’s your problem.

Or alternatively get a garage to do it so that they can mess around with the swivel kit and spacers.

Hope that helps.
Post #982276 13th Feb 2023 11:43am
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TomB8



Member Since: 17 Nov 2022
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 115

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi HT Arles Blue
Mark, thanks. I had discounted swivels as what I had read indicated the wobble to be much worse if that was the issue. Further, the swivel issue seemed to be play rather than looseness.

I just looked at the drivers side. There is no play side to side or up and down. However, using a luggage scale I get varying degrees of 'tightness' through the rotation of the hub. Around 4kg seems to be the average turning left, turning back to the right maybe 1kg.

When you say floppy, do you mean in rotation or up/down play? Can lack of tight balls cause bad vibrations?
Post #982288 13th Feb 2023 2:44pm
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markb110



Member Since: 22 May 2010
Location: Guildford
Posts: 2620

England 2002 Defender 90 Td5 HT Epsom Green
Hi TOM

By floppy i meant (sorry, should have expanded on that) that when you move the hub, with nothing attached it takes no effort to move it and hence no resistance.

Mine where fine moving the hub up and down, after that i gave it to the garage because messing around with shims at home is a pain especially when they have a full assortment to hand (and a lift and they could do the alignment once everything was completed).

Thumbs Up
Post #982305 13th Feb 2023 4:21pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3408

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
TomB8 wrote:


using a luggage scale I get varying degrees of 'tightness' through the rotation of the hub. Around 4kg seems to be the average turning left, turning back to the right maybe 1kg.


When checking preload, it needs to be done with track rod disconnected, so you are checking one wheel at a time (and use the track rod connection point), and without the ball seal.

I do not have the preload values at top of my head (sure there are some values on this forum, care that 24spline axles need lower values than earlier 10spline with Railko bush). 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #982313 13th Feb 2023 4:45pm
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TomB8



Member Since: 17 Nov 2022
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 115

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi HT Arles Blue
Gents, thank you for your input. I have now concluded that it is likely I will need to do a rebuild on both hubs. I knew they weren't in great condition, but neither is smooth through its travel, my balls are rusty, dirty and whilst there is no play, not as tight as I'd like em.

However, and whilst I appreciate the advice, I am going to try replacing the panhard rod bushes first. It's an easier job and I have the bushes.

I have just popped the panhard rod off. There was no play in it with a bar or wiggling the steering, but the bushes look like this:


Click image to enlarge


I had expected, as expressed earlier in the thread, that they would have to have noticeable play to cause wobble, but perhaps not, or perhaps it's a combination of loose swivels and some (albeit undetectable by me) play or even softening of these bushes. I will replace them and report back.
Post #982322 13th Feb 2023 5:57pm
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Linds Hanson



Member Since: 16 Jan 2021
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 484

United Kingdom 
Recheck the drop arm fixing nut they sometimes pull up further on the splines once you have driven around for a bit.
Post #982326 13th Feb 2023 6:30pm
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Mossberg



Member Since: 29 Feb 2020
Location: Lancs
Posts: 553

United Kingdom 1993 Defender 90 300 Tdi HT Aintree Green
Link to a thread on LR4x4 about preload setting figures

https://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/58077-setti...ent-509664
Post #982328 13th Feb 2023 6:50pm
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murph81



Member Since: 11 Sep 2022
Location: Ireland
Posts: 63

Ireland 2007 Defender 110 Td5 PU Belize Green
Did you torque the drop arm nut?

The Torque Setting for the Drop Arm securing nut is 176 NM, it is VERY IMPORTANT that the tightness of this nut is rechecked after use.
Once you are satisfied the Drop Arm has fully worked up the tapered spline of the steering box and the nut remains tight you can then knock over the edges of the lock washer.
Post #982337 13th Feb 2023 7:33pm
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TomB8



Member Since: 17 Nov 2022
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 115

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi HT Arles Blue
Linds and Murph, Thank you. I had read this and did as you have suggested - torqued to 176Nm and left the lock washer. The drop arm doesn't appear loose when shaking the steering wheel, but I will retorque it a few times over the coming days between short trips to be sure.

I did order a new nut, but the diameter across flats was 32.6mm with the original being 33.3mm. Having bought a 34mm socket just to do the drop arm I didn't really want to but a 33mm just to do up the new nut, nor did I want to round the new nut torquing it and give myself a headache, so the old one went back on. Worth noting if anyone buys a new nut, do check it first before you put it on and round it off doing it up or taking it off.

Mossberg, thank you for the preload figures. I will need them when I redo my hubs. I think for now they will have to stay as they are. The seal retainers fall apart a little more every time I look at them so leaving well alone until I am ready.


New bushes went in to the panhard rod tonight, will try it out tomorrow doing the obligatory last minute valentines day run to the shops to buy whatever is left on the shelves that makes me look like I gave it all lots of thought.
Post #982383 13th Feb 2023 11:33pm
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