 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Delayed production start |
 
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018   
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Launch now apparently pushed back to July 2022.
Looking for more details... "LONDON, May 12 (Reuters) - Production of Ineos’ first car, the off-roader Grenadier, will be pushed back to July 2022 to make sure rigorous testing targets are met following delays last year, the company said on Wednesday. Billionaire Jim Ratcliffe’s firm announced in December it would manufacture the model in Hambach, France, from late 2021 after a deal to take over a site run by Daimler, ditching plans to build a factory in Wales. On Wednesday it said more than 130 second-phase prototypes will be tested in extreme environments around the world. “We only have one opportunity to get this right and our quality and performance targets for the Grenadier remain paramount,” said CEO of Ineos Automotive Dirk Heilmann. “We won’t cut corners.” https://www.reuters.com/article/ineos-car-idUSL8N2MZ3OA |
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12th May 2021 11:43am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Timeless is the word you were missing...does really good engineering led design have anything to learn from fashion led design?
You should look to see where the model year updates came from and the reasons they were introduced... |
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13th May 2021 12:26pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Let's see if you think it's timeless in 10 years. 'Style' is a very subjective thing, and I know the Grenadier is marmite, but to me, it's butt ugly and belongs in 1977 (which is where the Matra Simca Rancho flowered). I was astonished that Ineos came out with this (and Matra Simca should sue).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matra_Rancho There are only four timeless cars in my opinion; the Porsche 911, the 2-door Range Rover, the original Defender, and the classic Mini. Now left. |
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13th May 2021 3:20pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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You seem more concerned with defining design as form and style, both of which tend to fall into and out of fashion and so fail the timeless test.
JLR products under the design of Mr McG unashamedly start with form and style and move to function later. They are not trying for the timeless design, as they have made the product with a built in visual obsolescence and this is the business model that goes with PCPs and churning over your acquisition every 3 to 5 years for the latest version. The new Defender even has had half year updates. Where form follows function there is an opportunity for the design to become timeless. The Grenadier may or may not become timeless but they have at least started from the right place. Saying it looks dated now just means you are judging it by, what to me, are the wrong criteria. In terms of your timeless cars, I wonder if a model losses the moniker if it goes out of production? |
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13th May 2021 4:24pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Am I to believe that you feel design is purely functional? With many items, that is indeed the criteria. However, it is most certainly not with motor vehicles, otherwise they would have no style at all. Car designers understand that what they create has to have 'style'. With the items I design in my business, I have to add a little style (as they are on show) even though they are purely functional items. I think the Grenadier is incredibly ugly and very dated. I thought it would grow on me, but it's done the reverse. It has to be one of THE most dated designs I have ever seen, and why the Matra Simca Rancho designers (as I said) should sue. The Grenadier is great...for 1977. Now left.
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13th May 2021 4:58pm |
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| chopcat Member Since: 11 Sep 2012 Location: Pembrokeshire Posts: 412  
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As they say....beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Not many people like my paintings either TC |
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13th May 2021 5:06pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4216 
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I’m a big fan of the Grenadier, but it’s looks are not it’s strong point. Whilst it not hideous, like Ssang Yong or something, but the detail design is poor, especially the front. I saw the design maybe 12 months before it was made public at a market research event and my response at the time was it looked like a cross between a G Wagon and a late Santander/Iveco Massif. They asked my opinion and I said to them at the time that they need not copy bits of others’ styling and should go there own way, but clearly I was in the minority, as it is practically unchanged from what they showed me. Thankfully an ARB winch bumper should sort out the worst of it. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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13th May 2021 5:58pm |
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| Fabio Member Since: 05 Aug 2011 Location: Somerset Posts: 589  
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I doubt this will ever be a thing.
Fabio |
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14th May 2021 5:05am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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On the contrary, but styling and then restyling just for the sake of differentiating a product as newer has no place in good design. If materials change or technology moves on then yes. Stating the Grenadier is great but only for 1977 appears to make your design criteria centred around the concept of time and place and that is the antithesis of timeless and contrary to my concept of good design principles. |
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14th May 2021 5:46am |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4216
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Curious as to why you think that given all the evidence it is progressing to production? Granted, it’s not going outsell the VW Golf, but I. Sure they’ll sell a few. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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14th May 2021 6:07am |
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| Ryderoo Member Since: 28 Aug 2015 Location: South Oxfordshire Posts: 1666  
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In my opinion
The Grenadier is not borne out of form, function or style. A clever, very wealthy business man saw the gap left in the market after demise of Defender. The original Defender is a classic shape. Unfortunately by imitating the Defender design it has fallen very short of the mark. The smart money says build from a complete new design. Mr Ratcliffe needs it to resemble the old Defender to market his product. No doubt it will drive well, if it has the BMW engine. Be interesting to see the RRP in 2022. Cheers Simon I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you 1990 110 TD5 county, my first Land Rover - gone 2012 Discovery 4 XS SDV6 - gone 2014 Discovery 4 XS SDV6 - gone 2015 Evoque SD4 dynamic - Wife’s - gone 2015 Urban Truck 90 XS Santorini Black Hard Top - Reluctantly gone 2020 Discovery 5 Eiger Grey 3.0 SE - gone March 24 2021 Defender S D250 Santorini Black 110 HT - gone March 24 2023 Evoque P300e SE wife’s current vehicle |
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14th May 2021 7:19am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Simon, I think you are correct. I think that's the way Ineos has seen the project... so they 'design' a utilitarian vehicle, and not care too much (if at all, by the look of it) at the aesthetics of that vehicle. My point is that is 'wrong'. Style plays a major part in car design - whatever car that is, even a utilitarian one. The Unimog is appealing, maybe because it is brutish, and many argue that they love the design of the G Wagon. People love the Jimny, because it's cute. However, I come back to the point that Ineos have made a mistake, that they styled a vehicle for the 2020s and beyond which is some 40 to 50 years out of date in style, and that's why it looks so much like the Matra Simca Rancho. You only have to read other threads here to see that many people feel that way. That is NOT the case with the original Defender. Even people (I want to say women in a sexist way!) like the original boxy Defender design. There is 'something' about it. Ineos was always going to build a utilitarian vehicle, but where they went wrong was believing that it didn't need any style or, as you rightly say, in trying to imitate the design of the original Defender. It DOES need style. Sure, there will be many companies and farmers who will ignore it's 1977 style and won't care. But why miss out on many, many sales because you failed to bring in a stylist? Now left.
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14th May 2021 7:37am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Supacat, no, you miss my point, mate. I pointed out a view comments ago that some cars are timeless. That can't be engineered and purposefully done, it's an accident. It's something inherent in our brains - that so many people like the classic Mini, for example. Issigoni (I think that's who hit was) said at the time that the Mini design was to include the criteria he had to meet. When I say the Grenadier is great, I mean the idea. The style is not. Now left.
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14th May 2021 7:44am |
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| LRSpain004 Member Since: 30 Jun 2020 Location: Elche Posts: 68 
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They will sell me one because I believe they will have inherent quality. The problem with the New Defender is that it does not even have reliable quality problems. What I mean by that is its akin to the US fairground game 'whack - a - mole' where you wait for the issues to appear and try and nail it. You know the mole is coming, you just don't know where. If you look at all the QA issues with the Defender they cover a wide range of the car; many people have different issues and this is very hard to deal with. If only LR had a few issues with a few items, then they could address them and the car would then be reliable. Why spend 80,000 euros and have a car that you know will give problems, you just have to wait to see where...... |
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14th May 2021 8:14am |
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