 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Grenadier or Rivian R1S |
 
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952  
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Is the Rivian R1S to be a serious threat to Grenadier sales? I wouldn't have initially thought so, but then I saw this Twitter video:
https://www.carscoops.com/2021/07/rivian-r...d-testing/ I would like to see it perform on rocks and mud, but I'm very impressed. It seems light years ahead of the Grenadier in design and, of course, it's fully electric. I know it's more SUV than 4x4, but Ineos are hoping for good US sales numbers, no doubt. So put your mind into that of a US buyer: already-dated looking new 4x4 with a BMW diesel engine and built in France...or a modern electric vehicle which costs only a bit more than the Grenadier (or maybe the same!)? https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/features/car...r-company/ I know I'm batting against some Grenadier fanboys, here, but I seriously doubt their projected sales figures (which justify their existence). And there are manufacturers who have yet to release their models, like the rumoured Toyota 4x4.  Click image to enlarge 'Imagined' Rivian R1S 4x4 Now left. |
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31st Jul 2021 8:25am |
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| Muddybigdog Member Since: 11 Apr 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 1026 
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Great to start seeing choice in the market, personally I can see Rivian being for those who want an SUV and the Ineos for those who need an SUV Jumped ship to reliability - Mitsubishi L200
Puma 90 XS - Sold D3 - 2.7 S x2 (both Sold) Freelander 2 HSE - Sold Freelander 1 - Sold Disco 2 - Sold |
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31st Jul 2021 9:53am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5877  
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Personally (and as a fan boy of both) I think it will be two entirely different markets. I think the Rivian will more likely ne up against the Rubicon and Bronco for extreme off road fun and/or camping and overlanding. Enthusiasts, adventurers etc. I think the Grenadier will be sought out by professionals. Those who would use it on a daily basis, need something rugged and wholly practical. Military maybe, but mainly utilities, farms, emergency services, police etc. Both will have their lifestyle buyers as well. I think there will be cross pollination between both groups, but when it happens I think more from Rivian to Grenadier, as I see some off road enthusiasts preferring the more simple design of the Grenadier over the Rivian for longer distance expeds where the diesel will be more practical and the vehicle as a whole easier to complete in-field repairs. Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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31st Jul 2021 10:23am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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You can do that if you want, yes. Whether you like it or not (and I'm guessing you don't) EVs are the future, and so are EV 4x4s. The Jeep Wrangler Magneto is much awaited, and Ford is working on a Bronco EV. EVs can't be denied. Now left. |
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31st Jul 2021 10:25am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Thanks for your post. I think, though, that Ineos must surely be putting great hope in US sales, and like I said, imagine the typical US 4x4 buyer. He (she) has the Wrangler, the Bronco, lots of pick-ups, and the Rivian. I just cannot see where the Grenadier slots in. Yes, I know it's going to be a rugged 4x4, but US buyers are not Australians. US sales matter a lot to any manufacturer of this type of vehicle, don't they? Now left. |
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31st Jul 2021 10:29am |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4225 
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I think even those of us that are very keen on the Grenadier (Fanboys if it makes you happy) are not blind to the obstacles it faces. The increasing pressure for zero emissions won’t help its case (especially with the large and powerful engines they’ve chosen). My employer runs a large fleet (c750) 4x4 and they need at least 3000kg towing capacity so the Grenadier could be on the list of possible purchases, especially given the gradual softening of most vehicles that were in that market. Pick ups are not suitable for a number of reasons. The fly in the ointment is that like many companies we have a commitment to going zero emissions, and hybrids are seen as the logical step on that path. Ineos not offering even a mild hybrid may be a problem.
It must be acknowledged that the Grenadier is an experiment to see if a market of sufficient size exists. What worries me is they have chosen to focus their PR and launch activities to capture relatively affluent private buyers in the U.K. they don’t seem to have done much in Australia, Middle East or the US. Also The LR Workshop video stated that they had decided NOT to chase business from NGOs or big fleets, which seems odd given the ficus it being a working vehicle. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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31st Jul 2021 10:54am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Bluest, I think Ineos must have done their market research for likely customers before they even had a sketch of the Grenadier, and I'm sure Australia was high on that list. However, Australia accounts for a small percentage of vehicle sales, and smallish percentage of 4x4 sales. China is obviously top at 19.3 million sales annually, but second is the US at 14.6 million (Australia not even a million). Of course, these are general cars, not 4x4s, but it is proportionate sales, so the US surely is the market to go for. My point is that the Grenadier will have too much competition. I appreciate the Rivian may not be a direct competitor, but it's too close IN THE US-BUYER'S MIND. I think many there will look at the Grenadier and the Rivian...and there can only be one winner.
I may well be wrong (and I'm really going to stick my neck out here), but I will be surprised if the Grenadier actually launches, or perhaps I should say not surprised if it doesn't! I will be very surprised if it survives three years. I just don't see the market for it - to me it's out of date before it has even been launched! If you want that kind of 4x4, what's wrong with the Ibex? And when was the last time you saw one on the roads or even at a 4x4 track? (fanboys of Ibex, don't get me wrong, I love them!). You say it's an experiment, but pouring over a billion into an experiment is beyond being risky. James Dyson had the sense to pull out, I'm not sure James Ratcliffe can stand the loss of face. The world of cars isn't my expertise (as you may of guessed) and I've been wrong about JLR, which I thought would have folded by now, but every time I look at the business case for the Grenadier, I don't see it - it simply has too much competition. Ratcliffe should have offered Tata a decent amount for JLR, they might have taken it. Instead, he tried to buy the rights to the Defender - a halfway house. I think this idea will come and bite him, and I come back to my point that the Grenadier will really be up against 'better' vehicles. As I've said all along, the Grenadier is already out of date. Now left. |
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31st Jul 2021 11:11am |
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| Pacha Member Since: 23 Feb 2020 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 772 
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The infrastructure for EV's is very poor currently. Charging at home is a struggle for the larger battery Kw/h cars - if the Rivian has a 135kw/h battery it will not charge up fully even with the current biggest 7 kw/h home charge points. Cars with half that size battery will take 8 hours @ 7kw/h. Rgds.
Chris |
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31st Jul 2021 11:35am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Of course it's an entirely false assumption to think of this as a zero sum game. Both should do well and rather than take sales off each other will be pulling new owners from any number of other brands.
For most in the UK, it may even come down to whether Rivian build a plant here. Amazon-backed electric vehicle maker Rivian in talks with ministers over UK factory https://news.sky.com/story/amazon-backed-e...y-12368739 I would not be surprised if Ineos pull off initial production with the BMW engines, move on to the double cab and then look to extend their portfolio with an electrified version for both. If I was to have a punt, I'd bet that there's one of these running around or at least in the future product plan: Click image to enlarge https://www.defender2.net/forum/post890912...gna#890912 Last edited by Supacat on 31st Jul 2021 11:58am. Edited 1 time in total |
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31st Jul 2021 11:52am |
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| Farmerben Member Since: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 605 
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Would take 12 hours to charge it from 20% to 80% on a 7.4kW charger. It will charge at 11.5 so if you had 3 phase and put a 22kw charger in it would take just shy of 8 hours. https://instagram.com/bentheoandrews
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31st Jul 2021 11:53am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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I think you are misunderstanding how people are actually using BEVs. Daily journey to work and back, say 30 miles, on charge overnight, rinse and repeat. That's really not a struggle for a 7kW home charger. |
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31st Jul 2021 12:03pm |
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| Pacha Member Since: 23 Feb 2020 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 772
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^^^^^^
Are you suggesting that is Rivian' target market? Rgds. Chris Last edited by Pacha on 31st Jul 2021 12:26pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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31st Jul 2021 12:09pm |
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| RobKeay Member Since: 19 Jul 2009 Location: Stafford Posts: 1588 
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Depends on the cost.
The rivian looks like the better option to replace our landrover (unless we rebuild it, which is currently looking like the best option) I’ve been keeping a keen eye on the trackers we only drive between 40 and 200 miles a day. It must be able to tow at those distances, if so looks a good choice. The grenadier like the new defender has very poor engines. Fuel economy is very poor. The 4x4 sprinter is currently a better option than the defender or the grenadier for commercial use. They are brilliant off road. |
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31st Jul 2021 12:17pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Rivian definitely coming to UK, and more, could be built here! News today...
https://news.sky.com/story/amazon-backed-e...y-12368739 Again, sure to take some of Grenadier's UK sales. Now left. |
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31st Jul 2021 1:45pm |
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