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| v8bob Member Since: 14 Mar 2018 Location: Midlands Posts: 319   
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Fancy a hybrid 1961 2a
Coil sprung tdi err https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Seri...Swv3Rgc1Ja What do we think it is? |
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12th Apr 2021 8:24pm |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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A bitsa. Darren
110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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12th Apr 2021 8:27pm |
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| Beero Member Since: 05 Jan 2021 Location: Southampton Posts: 21 
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Two words...Trigger's Broom!!
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12th Apr 2021 9:23pm |
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| seriesonenut Member Since: 19 Nov 2014 Location: Essex Posts: 1211
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A 'Q' plate 2010 XS USW
1957 Series One 88 diesel 1958 Series One 88 4x2 |
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13th Apr 2021 5:27am |
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| v8bob Member Since: 14 Mar 2018 Location: Midlands Posts: 319
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So, a bit of searching and I agree with seriesonenut - DVLA say:
DVLA uses a points system to decide what registration number to give a radically altered vehicle. Keep the original registration number Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame. Part Points Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5 Suspension (front and back) - original 2 Axles (both) - original 2 Transmission - original 2 Steering assembly - original 2 Engine - original 1 Get a ‘Q’ registration number You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies: it has fewer than 8 points it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’) I think, based purely on my view of dvla rules, the real problem is changing the chassis from leaf spring to coil spring. This obviously requires a modification to the chassis. That means no getting the 5 points for original or as original chassis? Although it does say you can change the suspension to improve the vehicle, I think changing the chassis to improve the suspension is not allowed. Although most of the other components have also been changed, it appears, as they are available in later models you don’t need to count them. DVLA also say the following: Acceptable changes It does not count as a ‘substantial change’ if: changes are made to preserve a vehicle because the original type parts are no longer reasonably available they are changes of a type which can be demonstrated to have been made when vehicles of the type were in production or within 10 years of the end of production axles and running gear have been changed to improve efficiency, safety or environmental performance changes were made to vehicles that were previously used as commercial vehicles, and you can prove the changes were made when the vehicle was used commercially I would appreciate any other peoples views. Sorry, not specifically trying to target this vehicle, just thinking of getting an older vehicle and wanted it to be clear what is legal? I also thought it would help others if it can be a little clearer.  |
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13th Apr 2021 7:13am |
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| Rosco Member Since: 03 Dec 2010 Location: Burntwood Posts: 1833 
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I've often wondered about this myself, where an owner evolves a vehicle over the years under their stewardship. Would the DVLA take a different view if one part was "updated" a year over the course of say 5 years, compared to one that was seriously updated as part of a resto/rebuild?
There is a couple of vehicles I spot regularly local to me that obviously arent what they preport to be. The one is what looks to be an ex-MOD 110 but wears the reg number from something of a series vintage and the other a late model RR classic on a much earlier number. 2007 - Stornoway Grey 90 XS SW - Gone 2002 - Black Discovery II - Gone 2014 - Montalcino Red 110 XS SW |
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13th Apr 2021 7:35am |
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| grafty99 Member Since: 15 Aug 2012 Location: North Devon Posts: 4786 
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Is it that the phrase the DVLA use is slightly open for interpretation?
They say "5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis... " The only part that says it must be unmodified is a new chassis, it doesn't say original and unmodified chassis. Is this what people are using as a loophole? 2002 90 Td5 Station Wagon 1990 Vogue SE Triumph Tiger Explorer 1200 Td5 90 Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic50767.html Tdi 110 Thread https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic69562.html RRC Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic54492.html Instagram http://www.instagram.com/george_grafton |
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13th Apr 2021 7:40am |
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| camelman Member Since: 27 Feb 2013 Location: Peak District Posts: 3373
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The 'substantial' changes description is to do with mot exemption only. The engine change alone means this one requires an mot unless it was done more than 30 years ago.
The points system is for the registration. If you're looking for an older vehicle, the more original it is, the more you're likely to see a return on your investment over time.  |
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13th Apr 2021 7:41am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17443 
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I think that there are very few 1961 SIIA parts on that vehicle. The only things I can see which are possibly original are the windscreen, truck cab, doors, and registration number.
There is absolutely no interpretation of the DVLA guidance that makes that the "original" vehicle. |
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13th Apr 2021 8:18am |
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| camelman Member Since: 27 Feb 2013 Location: Peak District Posts: 3373
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Insurance company "Has the vehicle been modified at all?"
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13th Apr 2021 9:29am |
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| v8bob Member Since: 14 Mar 2018 Location: Midlands Posts: 319
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I was thinking the rear tub and rear crossmember looked like series parts, and of course the windscreen.
So from that, without a close look, I was assuming it could be an early chassis that has been modified to have coil springs. If this was done more than 30 years ago, then that could be allowed. But what evidence can you have to prove it was done that long ago? My interpretation of what DVLA have on their web site is the points are to decide if you keep your original number plate or have to have a Q plate. The Historic Vehicle Road Tax classification appears to depend on mot exemption. So the points do matter. And the engine change can be allowed if you still have the eight points for not changing too much else. Is there something I have missed? |
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13th Apr 2021 10:52am |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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Agreed, potential can of worms with no upside. |
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13th Apr 2021 11:17am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17443
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Agree, the tub probably is, the cross-member is the correct style (unlikely to be original of course, tin worm will have seen to that). It is impossible to tell from the photos and description if the chassis is an 88" leafer converted to coils, or (for example) a Range-Rover chassis cut down to 88", but if you crawled underneath it would be obvious. DVLA rules require, I believe, that any change of wheelbase is notified so an RR chassis cut down could create registration retention problems now just by itself.
The chassis is at the least extensively modified, both axles, the engine, the gearboxes, and at least half the body are not original. I don't see how it could have enough points to retain the number, unless it predates the rules. The tax exemption and the MOT exemption are not interdependent in any way, but both are age and use related. To be MOT exempt it must have been built or first registered more than 40 years ago and had no ‘substantial changes’ in the last 30 years (and the .gov.uk website specifically lists as examples of substantial changes "replacing the chassis, body, axles or engine" - i.e., just about everything that has happened to this one). To be eligible for Historic Vehicle tax-exempt status the vehicle must have been "built" prior to the 1st January in the year that is 30 years before the most recently passed 1st April (you really couldn't make it up)! Given that the 200Tdi engine wasn't introduced until 1986, and the R380 wasn't introduced until 1995, this vehicle cannot have been "built" in its entirety in this form earlier than 1995, so it is highly unlikely that you could successfully argue that it is old enough to be eligible for historic status, nor for MOT exemption. I would have thought that the extent of the changes also makes it highly unlikely that the retention of the registration is in any way legitimate. I wonder what would happen if someone tried to export it to the USA on the basis that it is a 1961 vehicle! I think that the most honest comment in the description is "[the] Land Rover speaks for itself" - I suspect it is saying "run away"! |
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13th Apr 2021 3:25pm |
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| v8bob Member Since: 14 Mar 2018 Location: Midlands Posts: 319
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Thank you for the input Blackwolf.
I think the USA are fairly strict, not sure if all or just a percentage are checked. But I believe they are pretty thorough and crush anything they don’t approve. I think the chassis, in this instance means it should be a Q. And that is even if it has just been altered for coil springs. I think the body changes don’t appear to matter to the dvla. I don’t know what the dvla mean by this bit: “they are changes of a type which can be demonstrated to have been made when vehicles of the type were in production or within 10 years of the end of production axles and running gear have been changed to improve efficiency, safety or environmental performance” What date would they say “of the type were in production” is? 2016? I suppose it will all depend on who, why, where and how good a day they are having? Does anyone know of any Land Rover Series vehicles that have actually been refused tax or mot privileges? |
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13th Apr 2021 7:25pm |
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