 | Home > Technical > Defender 2.2 clutch/box knocking (Video Sound) |
 
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| Bluericky Member Since: 26 Jun 2014 Location: Cornwall Posts: 647   
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Very interested to hear opinions on this .
Mine has an as new take off gearbox and had a new LOF clutch fitted at the same time . The noise it now makes is identical to yours and will only go away with the clutch depressed. When hot I can blip the accelerator peddle and it will on occasion get rid of the rattle. When cold , if I pull the gear lever to the point when it’s just about to mesh it also gets rid of the rattle but it won’t do it when warm . The rattle/knock is particularly noticeable when outside the vehicle and appears to come from inside the bell housing . Unfortunately my mechanic who is highly experienced has said he’s seen it in brand new trucks. That was a bitter pill to swallow ! However I don’t get a limp mode or any faults on the diagnostics . I felt them at it was purely mechanical. Perhaps you have two issues https://www.instagram.com/hustynminepark/ |
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16th Feb 2021 11:33pm |
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| LR90XS2011 Member Since: 05 Apr 2011 Location: bickenhill Posts: 3645 
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this is something mine started to do after having a LOF clutch fitted, the explanation I received was that this is quite common with LOF clutch plates, the engine idling pulse sets up a chatter in the transmission, on mine it was certainly worse than the original LR clutch that had loose springs.
It was that bad it was annoying and I was finding myself with my foot on the clutch just to hide the noise, I was thinking of changing it back out even the Mrs kept commenting on it, however as the miles have built up it has become less (expect the springs in the clutch have relaxed or the centre is less stiff with use) to the point now where it is about the same as a new standard clutch and people don't notice it. there are a few threads on here about this exact issue DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS, I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy |
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17th Feb 2021 7:48am |
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| Bluericky Member Since: 26 Jun 2014 Location: Cornwall Posts: 647
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That’s really interesting, I also find myself with my foot on the clutch just to shut it up. Only done around 3000 miles on it since new. it’s such a horrible noise https://www.instagram.com/hustynminepark/
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17th Feb 2021 8:12am |
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| charliebroom Member Since: 16 Feb 2021 Location: Cheshire Posts: 7 
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Update - I got this knocking after heavily accelerating last night (Engine wasn't really warm, my bad) tested it this morning and nothing!
Not sure if it will reoccur, I'll keep you posted. |
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17th Feb 2021 10:31am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17453 
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This sort of rattly knock is a common problem with modern high-speed diesels, and is essentially the reason for the introduction of the dual mass flywheel.
The essential problem is that due to the higher compression ratio the diesel engine is not as smooth as a petrol engine, and if you could monitors the rotation of the crankshaft you would find that the speed is not constant, rather it fluctuates during the course of each revolution, constantly accelerating or decellerating very slightly. In the days of the traditional very low revving, heavy, diesel engine, this was mitigated by the fitting of a very heavy flywheel (whcih of course smooths this out due to its inertia), but a modern high speed diesel is expected (by people used to driving petrol-engined cars) to be responsive, and to be that it must have a light, low inertia flywheel, and this cannot damp out the vibrations effectively. Faced with the challenge of reducing vibrations without resorting to a flywheel which weighs half as much as the vehicle, the clever designers looked to the springing in the clutch plate, since this is the other place where vibration can be addressed. Traditionally clutch driven plate springs are hefty things, since they only need to absorb sudden shock loads such as a cack-handed (or cack-footed) drive (remembering that the flywheel absorbs the vibration, the clutch doesn't have to). If you fit much softer springs, they will absorb the vibration, but they tend to be more fragile and prone to taking on a permanent "set" since they spend most of their time much more compressed than stiffer springs. This means that they are not entirely satisfactory. The next development was the DMF, which allowed much more sophisticated springing by making more space available, and also allowed clever balancing and resonance effects to be used to achieve a satisfactory smooth drive without compromising clutch spring performance. The trouble is that in heavy-duty applications DMFs proved to be less than durable, hence the many issues seen wit the TD5 clutch/flywheel assembly, which as we all know (or at least those who work them heavily know) is prone to judder. It also makes for a very expensive clutch replacement, hence owners moan a lot. Bring on the Puma. After being mindful of the weaknesses of the TD5 DMF, the Landrover designers sensible decided to return to a solid flywheel and sprung clutch for the Puma. The problem is that LR designers appear to have forgotten how to design clutches just about anything mechanical (no doubt the engineers have been replaced with "stylists"), and the early clutches were notorious for having springs which take on a vey severe set very quickly, then rattle a lot, and eventually fall out, usually destroying the clutch cover and flywheel in the process. Over the years the design of the springs has improved, and the latest LR and the best non-LR driven plates are actually pretty good (eg the Transit 4x4, LOF, etc). If you fit a solid flywheel and sprung clutch to a TD5, you do of course end up with a driveline essentially the same as a Puma. So why do these rattle? When you have a light (solid) flywheel coupled with a fairly stiff-sprung clutch plate (which all the ones that actually last are), all those pesky torsional accelerations and decelerations pass through the clutch and into the gearbox. Under load they have little effect (except to accelerate wear on the Puma's output adaptor shaft splines and drive flange splines), but in neutral they cause the input shaft on the gearbox to rattle its primary pinion gear against the layshaft input gear, where inevitable there is a little backlash. This is generally what you hear, and the rattle of course stops when you press the clutch. This is the rattle that the firms which supply uprated clutches, or which supply solid flywheel kits for the TD5, warn you about, you really can't avoid the rattle. The caveat is that if you have a Puma-style clutch and the driven plate springs have taken on a set and as a result the clutch itself has a lot of backlash you will get a similar sound. This is more serious since it is a harbinger of clutch failure. The best way to check for this is to put the vehicle in neutral with the clutch in (i.e., not pressed, for those unfamiliar with traditional terminology), open the driver's door, and then stop the engine. Usually a knackered driven plate will make a very pronounced rattle as it "bounces" as the engine stops. In the case of a Defender I find the best reaction to a rattle like this (as with most other Defender noises) is to turn up the radio and try not to worry. When something falls off or breaks it is telling you to mend it, if you worry about the rattles you'll just end up with grey hair!  |
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17th Feb 2021 12:43pm |
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| charliebroom Member Since: 16 Feb 2021 Location: Cheshire Posts: 7
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I cant thank you enough for that explanation, I understand the issue fully, its been vaguely explained on many other threads and as a result people have jumped ship and replaced the clutch.
As the knocking has disappeared for now, I'll continue as I was and keep an eye on it. Many Thanks, Charlie. |
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17th Feb 2021 12:57pm |
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| Matt110 Member Since: 29 Jun 2014 Location: UK Posts: 685
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Blackwolf, my clutch springs only rattle when the vehicle is cold (and then they're really very pronounced now and worsening), when its warm, the rattle goes away regardless of how treated in terms of clutch up or depressed, and it doesnt make the death rattle on flywheel stop from keying off.
Given the normal puma experience..... how close is it to springs falling out?! |
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17th Feb 2021 3:04pm |
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| Angus_Beef Member Since: 30 Apr 2015 Location: Oslo Posts: 434  
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Blackwolf, this is an underrated post you have made here. This is a great explanation, even for those who understand the issue conceptually! Roaming around 🇳🇴🇨🇭
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25th Aug 2021 7:26pm |
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| ashtrans Site Sponsor Member Since: 08 Nov 2008 Location: Harpenden Posts: 258
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we have fought this issue for many years, at least twice a week I have this conversation,
"I have just fitted your gearbox, it rattles on idle and stops when I dip the clutch" Me, "did you fit a new clutch ?" "yes, a super duper Heavy duty one / single mass flywheel (TD5) " Me, "its likely to be 'clutch chatter', pls see the top FAQ on our website " followed be about half an hour of, my old gearbox didn't do this and me reiterating the HD clutch has induced this etc, etc we had a TD5 90 sent to us from a trader insisting the newly supplied R380 box was bad and they had fitted a new valeo clutch kit, very bad chatter, we stripped and inspected, we found they had indeed fitted a new stock valeo TD5 clutch but neglected to notice it had a single mass flywheel so this single mass flywheel was running with the stock solid friction plate. Dave |
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25th Aug 2021 8:12pm |
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| Co1 Member Since: 19 Aug 2018 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 3683 
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Dave and blackwolfs post is what made me fit a standard clutch plate to my puma. The difference over the worn one was immediate and the drive felt brand new. Unfortunately, within about 10k miles the springs have set and the rattle is back, as well as a bit of slop as the springs don’t take up as much slack as they did when new. It’s a shame but that’s landrover life, right?! I’ll probably still opt for an LR clutch next time as it feels like the least worst position to have the springs rattling than it does the gears in the gearbox!
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26th Aug 2021 5:11am |
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| The Anti Christ Member Since: 24 Feb 2022 Location: Kingston Posts: 26  
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Been having this issue since first aquired my 2009 PUMA 110 2.4 at 14,000km.
She's at 66,000+ km now and no drive-train issues. However may do a full clutch service while replacing a leaking rear crank seal, depending on the condition found when the tranny is dropped. Was told by LR Dealership that it was just a "Land Rover noise" and not to worry about it while still under warrenty. The rattling hasnt gotten any worse or better over 9 years and there's been no noticable problems with gear changes. I have developed a habit of slightly gunning the engine, with clutch depressed, between upward shifts to compensate for the backlash, so a passeneger may never really notice...but in truth, I never truley got used it. Much prefer to switch off if waiting for any period of time while stationary to save everyone in earshot from the horrible hammering sound. |
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24th Feb 2022 10:26pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20454
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I just went for a genuine clutch, and I was told the flywheel was fine with mine as was the splined intermediate shaft though they lubed it as well anyway following the advice of Blackwolf (thank you).
This was some time ago now, never had an issue since. The early clutch plates were not great, mine failed at 44k. 
I had a look at it and it was really worn, not good at all for that mileage! LR did upgrade them, and I got one of the newer upgraded versions which was around early 2014 just before I needed a replacement. I’m not sure what they have done with them since but this one has been decent. Some aftermarket items can be a real benefit, but some more trouble than they are worth instead so I like to be sure first. After all it’s a significant expense, one that I wouldn’t want very often! Mother reason for a placebo poor clutch performance is a failed or failing clutch switch. I’ve disabled mine, never looked back since and makes for a very good drive and with mechanical sympathy no more stress is applied to drive train than with it. I’d say less in fact, as you have a smoother and more reliable power delivery and less jerky input and throttle response. Smooth gear changes and smooth power delivery is key to extending clutch life, and obviously not riding the clutch. If I had to get another, I’d go for the same again. Hopefully not anytime too soon.. No Guts, No Glory. 🇬🇧🏴🏴🏴🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪 |
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24th Feb 2022 11:02pm |
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| Vitesse Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Sussex Posts: 386 
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I have a 2015 Puma 90 with 78k on the clock. Original clutch. I get the rattling noise as per the video on here. I guess in my case its just simply worn out as described. question now is what to replace with. I was looking at LOF, but after this thread I have some doubts?? 2015 90 XS Santorini Black
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25th Feb 2022 9:00am |
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| The Anti Christ Member Since: 24 Feb 2022 Location: Kingston Posts: 26
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For my money, always go with original LR parts if you have a choice. ....Better the devil you know than the devil you dont!
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25th Feb 2022 2:06pm |
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