 | Home > Off Topic > Life safety Fire Sprinkler systems in schools |
 
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| AndrewS Member Since: 10 Apr 2007 Location: Hereford Posts: 3707   
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As some of you know I am involved in Fire Sprinkler Systems in that my company refurbishes the water tanks that hold the water that puts the fire out.
Our industry is pushing the government to update Building Bulletin 100 to make it mandatory that fire sprinklers are fitted in all new build and majorly refurbished schools in England. Scotland and Wales already have this in place. If you could sign this petition perhaps we could persuade the powers that be to get sprinklers in to English schools. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/549558 130's have feeling's as well you know  |
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4th Sep 2020 11:56am |
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| gilarion Member Since: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Wales Posts: 5110  
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 Signed For those who like Welsh Mountains and narrow boats have a look at my videos and photos at..
http://www.youtube.com/user/conwy1 |
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4th Sep 2020 1:46pm |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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It's an interesting one, this. Statistically, schools are incredibly safe places in terms of risk to life from fire (and pretty much everything else). This is primarily because they are such a controlled environment.
It's true that school buildings do suffer unduly from arson but this is typically during school holidays when the buildings are largely empty. The amount of damage that results is due in no small part to the fact that the majority of the school estate are older buildings that aren't built to current standards of compartmentation and it's questionable whether sprinkler systems would change that. They are intended to save lives rather than buildings and water damage can be just as bad as fire in some circumstances. And, of course, it does come down to cost. A sprinkler system is a very expensive piece of kit, both to install and maintain afterwards. That said, they are required in buildings over a certain size or complexity, so the wording of the petition is slightly misleading. The requirement is just more nuanced than in Wales and Scotland and is covered by the Building Regs rather than BB100. I was involved in the design and maintenance of school buildings for nearly twenty years. In that time, I designed a 250 place sixth form centre that incorporated a mains fed sprinkler system and was involved with the design of a new-build secondary school that had a tank fed system, so they do already exist in England where it's deemed appropriate. Darren 110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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4th Sep 2020 2:29pm |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3498 
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I agree with you Darren.
I am involved in building design and I can tell you there are many many schools out there which don't even have a compliant fire alarm system. The requirement for sprinklers in a building will be dependent on a risk assessment. It not only is concerned with how high a building is, but also escape route lengths and distance to fire hydrants. A lot of schools are single or two storey buildings which are not difficult to escape from in the event of a fire. I'm not dismissing a need. In an ideal world, yes all schools would have sprinklers. It would save more lives if we had sprinklers in domestic houses but I don't suppose anyone would want to stomach the price of installation and maintenance of such a system. Probably more of an issue and more pressing for installation of sprinklers are places where people are sleeping. Next time you are taking a night in one of those popular 'Inn / Lodge' style hotels, think. I am in a room with no emergency lighting and in a building which has no sprinkler system. So if the fire alarm went off in the middle of the night, and the power failed, and you woke up and started panicing, do you think you would find the door out? The windows are restrained, so you can't get out of them. I have spent many nights in these style of hotels and it has often crossed my mind. |
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4th Sep 2020 3:59pm |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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The problem with schools is that it's an emotive issue. As you say, I'm sure that there would be more benefit, as in lives saved, by sprinklers in residential settings but that's too diverse to capture the attention of the general public.
Personally, I'd like to see a lot more funds for asbestos removal in schools as in the longer term, that's a much greater health risk. The costs and disruption are truly astronomical though. Darren 110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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4th Sep 2020 5:55pm |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3498
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it may surprise many but sprinklers are one of the first things to be value engineered out of a building in design. Usually the push for this has come from the building owners who realise that some pipes, pumps and a big tank aren’t as interesting as an impressive atrium or feature wall.
Our library burnt out in Norwich around 30 years ago. The building was built without sprinklers as the thought was the water damage would do more harm than smoke or a fire. This was misguided and a lot or irreplaceable books and memorabilia was lost. Sprinkler systems are also not easy to install like some think. The pumps require two separate supplies. The mains electricity is easy. The second has to either come from another electrical supply (from a different high voltage transformer to the main building supply) or from a diesel generator. The first is not always possible due to the public electricity network not being available without lots of reinforcement work (that’s money to you and me). The latter is easier but a generator set and diesel storage is not always possible in built up areas. The mains water. Supply also needs to be checked that it can deliver enough capacity to maintain the sprinklers and this determines the size of tank storage. This may also require reinforcement works* see comment previously. I don’t design sprinklers but it’s part of what we do at work. I think sprinklers will become more standard sadly due to Grenfell. I think this will mostly happen in new build rather than retrofit. It may also be a requirement of insurance companies. |
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4th Sep 2020 7:05pm |
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| markb110 Member Since: 22 May 2010 Location: Guildford Posts: 2634  
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Ah the good ol days in chemistry class putting the rubber hose from the gas tap into the sink, turning it on, turn tap off. Then set the gas off in the sink......
Making Ninja stars in metal work, putting them on the grinder then letting them go to embed themselves into the ceiling. That was also the years when we learnt to duck when the blackboard eraser went flying past your head and the ruler hurt...  |
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4th Sep 2020 7:36pm |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2151 
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If buildings like Grenfell were actually maintained and modified in line with their original build qualities then there would have been / will be no issues.........
Who wraps themselves in flammable sheeting |
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4th Sep 2020 7:55pm |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3498
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Absolutely 90 Dreamer. And when the inquest is over, I am sure we will find that it wasn’t just the cladding. There will be a catalogue of disasters and most if not all will be down to poor maintenance and cost cutting.
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4th Sep 2020 8:08pm |
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| dorsetsmith Member Since: 30 Oct 2011 Location: South West Posts: 4554 |
Who wraps themselves in flammable sheeting
Better still who had there bag pack ready to lave at seat of the fire  white good supplied by land lord i.e.* tumble dryer not check *
also having modified, the buildings land lord did NOT seek advice from fire procession specialist whether the fire system and fire evacuation still valid and who never checked or had cladding tested ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ |
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5th Sep 2020 6:41am |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3498
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All of the above dorsetsmith is correct.
There have also been reports of inadequately rated fire doors being fitted, fire doors being propped open as the self closers didn’t work and they banged in the wind. Also a new gas main pipe being installed up the building and the holes through the building structure had not been fire stopped. There were numerous reports of electrical faults. What’s worse, the people who lived in Geenfell had complained, but no one did anything. The biggest problem with these buildings is they only have a single staircase. This will have been a design decision from the 60’s when these were built to save money on the construction costs. It is one of the reasons behind the stay put policy. Firefighters would struggle to get up to a fire on a staircase which the entire inhabitants of a twenty something storey accommodation block were trying to get out of. My Grandparents lived in a block of flats in the 70’s and 80’s with a single staircase, no fire escape and a stay put policy. Even as a child I remember thinking this was not right. |
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5th Sep 2020 7:14am |
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| ARC99 Member Since: 19 Feb 2013 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1831 
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Rashers.
The stay put policy would have worked if all other fire stop measures had been had been correctly fitted. I work in a relatively new build very large four storey education establishment, maintenance crews from a fire prevention company are still carrying out remedial works on holes in walls round pipes, doors that have had the Intumescent Fire Door Seals removed to allow the doors to fit. Don't make old people mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to  us off.
Richard |
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5th Sep 2020 8:44am |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2151
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but if the fire can't spread then a stay put policy does work............
have read there are numerous problems with trying to retrofit any form of reliable fire suppression system |
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5th Sep 2020 8:44am |
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| Pilgrimmick Member Since: 16 Nov 2015 Location: Highlands Posts: 582
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I have recently extended the house into an attached barn, I wanted to fit a sprinkler system, but could not find anyone who could supply anything that was suitable without costing tens of thousands of pounds. Most rural houses like mine will burn down before a fire engine can reach you, so was a bit disappointed. 80" 1948
Lightweight V8 Bowler Tomcat 130 Station wagon 90 300tdi (Santana PS10 pick up) Range Rover L322 (Ful fat) |
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5th Sep 2020 9:01am |
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