 | Home > General & Technical (L663) > New Def, Old Def and Gladiator off-road. |
 
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| alantd Member Since: 14 Dec 2008 Location: Northamptonshire Posts: 1513   
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The TFL videos are always pretty honest and fair to Land Rover (unlike a lot of US reviews that can't get beyond their love of Jeeps and Australians who can't think past their Toyotas or Nissans).
Apart from being short wheelbase, the Classic Defender in the video is running 3.5" lift, 36.5" tyres, reduction gear and Lockers front and rear. New Defender is running 2" trick-lift, slightly oversize BFG tyres - no rear locker. I confess I don't know how the trick-lift works (apart from fooling the Defender to thinking it's lower than it is). Does it genuinely increase lift in raised-height setting? How does that work - there's only so much height to be had. Note: under normal circumstances, if you get beached with the air suspension in raised mode there are 2 additional heights available if you hold the switch down - most reviewers don't know about that (see Mercedes vs Defender video). 
Personally, I like these reviews but they don't tell me much. Comparing a New Defender to an old one or a Gladiator is like comparing a gas stove to a camp fire. A more useful comparison would be the New Defender to the D4 or D5 or to a current Toyota (not 70 series) or Nissan. I have both old and new Defenders. They're very different propositions. I green lane both but I'd overland in the old one (where the journey is the adventure) and carry my family in the new one (because I love them). As it happens, both make me smile whenever I drive them; both are preferable to my previous D4 and D5; and, occasionally, I get a wave from other Defender drivers - thank you  One that started out as a 2.4 TDCi 110 XS
+ New Defender 110 First Edition |
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10th Aug 2020 12:31pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Tim your post knocking a chap for knocking JLR/new Defender might of have more moral authority if you then hadn't gone on to bash a supplier/vehicle yourself? To be clear I'm happy with both - robust conversations about vehicles is great. Spent more than a few nights around a campfire slagging off a friends Suzuki, etc, only to have them recover me from a hole the next day. |
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10th Aug 2020 2:20pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Land Rover survived before them, so I'm not certain why it would not have survived after them? It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation but if JLR had not decided it wanted to make 1m vehicles, it would not have so many new nameplates, invested over £20 billion, taken on over 40,000 employees...and also made record losses that puts it's future right back into the fire again.
I know that's aimed at the old Defender - but it's actually more applicable to the new one right now. 
Rest assured Land Rover will always survive - the brand is too strong not too. The issue is with how it survives, what product it produces and what market is serves. Tata have it today, and someone else might have it in the near future. I do recognise your view as being different. |
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10th Aug 2020 2:34pm |
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2651  
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The active rear diff has a multi-plate clutch (I could be remembering wrong here) that allows it to lock variably, depending on the traction available, same as in the D3/D4/RR/RRS. the 'normal' diff is just an open diff. -- 2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged 
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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10th Aug 2020 2:52pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Thanks - so it is mechanical then.
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10th Aug 2020 3:01pm |
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2651
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^ yep, but electronically-controlled
it comes standard on the V8 Range Rover models, as it provides Torque-based vectoring for enhanced road-holding. -- 2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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10th Aug 2020 3:05pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17564 
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It sounds as though it is essentially a Haldex type unit.
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10th Aug 2020 3:15pm |
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2651
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I'm not too clued up on the mechanics of it, but here's an old thread where someone took it apart: https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showt...-it-works!
and an explanation of how it works:
this is quite old, so maybe the tech has changed since then? -- 2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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10th Aug 2020 3:55pm |
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2651
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from the workshop manual for my MY15 RRS:
Open Differential The open differential is a conventional design using a hypoid gear layout. The aluminum casing comprises two parts; a cover and a carrier. The carrier provides locations for all the internal components. The cover is sealed to the carrier with Loctite RTV sealant and secured with bolts. The cover and carrier have cast fins, which assist rigidity and cooling. A breather cap is fitted to the top of the carrier. The open differential contains a quantity of oil for splash lubrication of the internal components. A magnetic drain plug is installed in the bottom of the carrier and a filler/level plug is installed in the cover. The pinion shaft has an externally splined end which offers a direct connection to the driveshaft via the DTF (Direct Torque Flow) connection. In comparison to the conventional flange connection the DTF connection provides: - Reduced weight due to fewer components. - Smaller outer diameter. - Improved driveshaft imbalance. - Reduced assembly time. The pinion shaft has a hypoid gear at its inner end, which mates with the crown wheel drive gear. The crown wheel drive gear is located on the differential carrier and secured with bolts. The differential carrier is mounted on taper roller bearings located in machined bores in the carrier and the cover. Shims are installed behind the bearing cupsto apply the correct bearing preload and hypoid backlash. The differential carrier has a through hole, which provides location for a cross shaft. The planet gears are installed on the cross shaft, with thrust washers between the planet gears and the differential carrier. A roll pin locks the cross shaft to the differential carrier. The sun gears are located in pockets in the differential carrier and mesh with the planet gears. Belville washers are fitted between the sun gears and the differential carrier and set the correct mesh contact between the planet gears and the sun gears. Each sun gear has a machined bore with internal splines and a machined groove. The splines transfer drive to the rear drive halfshafts. The groove provides positive location for the snap ring fitted to the inboard end of the rear drive halfshafts. Oil seals are installed in the carrier and the cover to seal the rear drive halfshafts. Electric Differential The electric differential has the same functionality as the open differential, but it also incorporates a locking and torque biasing function to give improved traction performance and vehicle dynamic stability. Operation of the electric differential is controlled by the RDCM (Rear Differential Control Module). The basic construction of the electric differential is similar to the open differential. However, the electric differential also has the following: - Two additional planet gears in the differential carrier, to cater for the higher torque through the differential during locking events. - A multi-plate clutch and actuator assembly installed on the left-hand sun gear. - A motor and reduction gearbox, attached to the cover. - An oil temperature sensor installed in the cover. The RDCM operates the motor of the electric differential under the control of the (ISCM) Integrated Suspension Control Module. The multi-plate clutch is contained in a clutch basket attached to the differential carrier with the crown wheel securing bolts. Alternate plates of the clutch pack are keyed to the clutch basket and the left-hand sun gear. A pressure disc is installed on the outer end of the clutch pack and keyed to the clutch basket. A thrust race on the end of the clutch basket incorporates lugs which extend through the clutch basket onto the pressure disc. The actuator assembly is mounted on bearings on the outboard end of the clutch basket, against the thrust race. The actuator assembly consists of input and output actuators separated by five ball bearings. A locking pin in the cover engages with a slot in the output actuator to prevent it turning, but allow it to move axially. The input actuator engages with the reduction gearbox and is free to rotate relative to the cover. Ball bearings locate in curved grooves in the mating faces of the input and output actuators. The bottom surface of each groove incorporates a ramp. Rotation of the input actuator forces the ball bearings up the ramps in the grooves and induces an axial movement in the output actuator. The thrust race and pressure disc transfer the axial movement from the output actuator to the clutch pack.
Item Description 1 Actuator 2 Multi-plate clutch 3 Differential The motor is a 12 V DC motor that adjusts the frictional loading of the multi-plate clutch, via the reduction gearbox and the actuator assembly, under the control of the RDCM. Adjusting the frictional loading of the multi-plate clutch adjusts the locking torque between the crown wheel drive gear and the sun wheel. Four bolts attach the motor to the reduction gearbox, which is located in position on the cover with two dowels, and secured with four bolts. An O-ring seals the joint between the motor and the reduction gearbox. The motor is driven by a 12 V DC feed direct from the RDCM. The motor also incorporates the following connections with the RDCM: A motor temperature sensor, to prevent excessive use from damaging the motor. Two Hall effect motor position sensors, to enable closed loop control of the motor. The temperature sensor provides a differential oil temperature signal to the RDCM, to prevent excessive use from damaging the multi-plate clutch. Rear Differential Control Module The RDCM controls operation of the electric differential. The RDCM is attached to a bracket located on the right-hand side of the luggage compartment. The RDCM receives three battery feeds from the RJB (Rear Junction Box) and an ignition feed from the CJB (Central Junction Box). A connection with the high-speed CAN (Controller Area Network) Powertrain bus allows the RDCM to communicate with other systems on the vehicle. A certain amount of differential slip is required to allow the vehicle to turn corners and to remain stable under control of the ABS (Anti-Lock Brake System control module) . The ISCM monitors the driver's demands through primary vehicle controls and automatically sets the slip torque in the differential. The system is completely automatic and does not require any special driver input. The differential strategy in the ISCM includes: - A pre-loading function, increasing locking torque with increased driving torque. -A slip controller to decrease locking torque for optimum comfort, for example when parking. The ISCM memorizes the position of the motor when the ignition is switched off. CAN bus messages used by the ISCM include wheel speed, steering angle, automatic transmission speed, temperature information, car configuration, axle ratios and mode inputs. The ISCM also sends messages via the high speed CAN Powertrain and Chassis bus to tell other control modules on the network the status of the electric differential. The clutch torque and default mode status are some of the main signals sent out by the ISCM. OPERATION Open Differential Rotational input from the drive shaft is passed via the input flange to the pinion shaft and pinion gear. The angles of the pinion gear to the crown wheel drive gear moves the rotational direction through 90°. The transferred rotational motion is now passed to the crown wheel drive gear, which in turn rotates the differential casing. The cross-shaft, which is secured to the casing, also rotates at the same speed as the casing. The planet gears, which are mounted on the shaft, also rotate with the casing. In turn, the planet gears transfer their rotational motion to the left and right hand sun gears, rotating the drive halfshafts. When the vehicle is moving in a forward direction, the torque applied through the differential to each sun gear is equal. In this condition both drive halfshafts rotate at the same speed and the planet gears do not rotate. If the vehicle is turning, the outer wheel will be forced to rotate faster than the inner wheel by having a greater distance to travel. The differential senses the torque difference between the sun gears. The planet gears rotate on their axes to allow the outer wheel to rotate faster than the inner one. Electric Differential The multi-plate clutch prevents excessive differential slip and therefore maximizes the traction performance of the vehicle. This is fundamentally different from 'braked' traction control systems, which can only counteract differential slip when it occurs. A certain amount of differential slip is required to allow the vehicle to turn corners and to remain stable under control of the ABS. The system is completely automatic and does not require any special driver input. The multi-plate clutch actively controls the torque flow through the differential and optimizes the torque distribution in the driveline. The clutch biases the torque from the differential to the wheel with the higher grip and prevents the wheel with the lower grip from spinning. -- 2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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10th Aug 2020 4:11pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17564
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This is fairly conventional for an electrically-operated locking diff and is the same principle as a Haldex unit. It's a shame really that the unit isn't the same shape and size as the traditional Rover diff - there'd be a queue of people retro-fitting them into earlier vehicles!
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10th Aug 2020 5:16pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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I thought the keys were handed to the Defender owner or representative of the main dealer to drive the really tough bits? And whilst the issue of the lower wishbones is obvious, this it not a particularly extreme section of the track and it's still happening: Click image to enlarge And what are they made of ~ the rocks appear to be shaving metal off very easily: Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge You can even see a peeled piece on the arm: Click image to enlarge Makes you think back to this: Click image to enlarge The exhaust also didn't come off without damage, and whilst the rear lower trim shows signs of damage, it does not appear to have split: Click image to enlarge Last edited by Supacat on 28th Sep 2020 6:12pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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11th Aug 2020 5:51am |
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2651
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Looks like he picked the wrong line?
His right tyres should have gone *over* the rock, not around it? That's off-roading 101: always place your wheels on the highest spots and always go over rocks, not around them in order to prevent sidewall cuts. At least that's the way I was taught  --
2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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11th Aug 2020 6:43am |
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| alantd Member Since: 14 Dec 2008 Location: Northamptonshire Posts: 1513
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CAVEAT: I'm slightly out of my mechanical depth I don't think it's a HALDEX unit (which is hydraulically operated). It's an actuator-based system of clutch plates. What the benefits/drawbacks are I couldn't tell you. However, the Discovery Sport, Freelander and Evoque use HALDEX as a centre diff, allowing for 2WD and Auto-selected 4WD. Defender, Discovery 5, RR and Velar are all Permanent 4WD. Centre and rear diffs are automatically controlled (with ability for manual override) limited slip e-diffs. I've had a rear locker on my D4, D5 and New Defender and probably never needed them (although it is fun to watch the display as the computer decides when to pre-load and then lock them). Ironically, I've not put lockable diffs on my original Defender (although I could have used them many times and now have ATB LSDs). One that started out as a 2.4 TDCi 110 XS + New Defender 110 First Edition |
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12th Aug 2020 10:37am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17564
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A Haldex unit uses a multiplate wet clutch, nowadays normally electrically actuated via an ECU, fully therefore programmable.
As far as I can tell, this is exactly what is happening in the E-diff. |
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12th Aug 2020 12:14pm |
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