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Co1



Member Since: 19 Aug 2018
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3671

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Loire Blue
Anyone got front bench seats in a puma?
Has anyone gone 3 up in the front in a puma? Pretty sure I saw it on the twisted open day and quite like the idea. If you’ve got it, post a pic if you don’t mind.

Cheers
Col
Post #825837 16th Apr 2020 4:53pm
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MJN110



Member Since: 18 May 2015
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 380

United Kingdom 2016 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 Landmark LE Montalcino Red
I am not sure if that would be legal in a Puma 2016 Defender Landmark 90
2005 Defender CSW TD5 90XS
Post #825844 16th Apr 2020 5:32pm
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bankz5152



Member Since: 02 Feb 2017
Location: South London/North Kent
Posts: 2147

2004 Defender 110 Td5 DCPU Epsom Green
You can have a middle seat in place of the cubby. You cannot have bench seats however. Instagram @defender_ventures
Empire Tuning - Agent
Post #825845 16th Apr 2020 5:33pm
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MJN110



Member Since: 18 May 2015
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 380

United Kingdom 2016 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 Landmark LE Montalcino Red
I thought the centre seat lap belt would be an issue 2016 Defender Landmark 90
2005 Defender CSW TD5 90XS
Post #825846 16th Apr 2020 5:38pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17344

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
I very much doubt that there is a type-approved centre seat option for the Puma.
Post #825859 16th Apr 2020 7:01pm
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Moz



Member Since: 29 Jan 2020
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 25

United Kingdom 
Hi in my puma 90 county Ht van it's got 3 seats including driver on the log book I always assumed that was for a centre seat it had at some point starting life? Or have there never been any in a puma ?
Post #825861 16th Apr 2020 7:12pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17344

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
I didn't think it had ever been an option on the Puma, but I am ready to be corrected. I've certainly never seen one, and I think it would have to a 3-point belt which would be a challenge.
Post #825871 16th Apr 2020 7:33pm
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Co1



Member Since: 19 Aug 2018
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3671

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Loire Blue
bankz5152 wrote:
You can have a middle seat in place of the cubby. You cannot have bench seats however.


This is what I meant, middle seat, not bench.
Post #825874 16th Apr 2020 7:43pm
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RichLech



Member Since: 09 Nov 2015
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 115

United Kingdom 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Keswick Green
I looked into this when I got my 2012 commercial. I concluded that the Puma was never meant to have three seats in the front and so fitting one would probably be illegal and would definitely cause insurance issues!

If anyone can prove otherwise I would love to know.
Post #825902 16th Apr 2020 9:23pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17344

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
Unless your middle passenger was an amputee, I think it would also cause leg issues!
Post #825906 16th Apr 2020 9:33pm
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Co1



Member Since: 19 Aug 2018
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3671

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Loire Blue
To be honest, the middle passenger would only be a dog! It was on the twisted lightweight that I saw them:

Click image to enlarge
Post #825923 17th Apr 2020 4:59am
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discomog



Member Since: 09 May 2015
Location: Notts/Lincs Border
Posts: 2526

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black
If you intended for the middle seat to be for your dog, have you considered just removing the cubby box, making a padded cover for the floor and fitting a restraining harness? Defender 90XS SW
Mini Countryman Cooper S
Morgan Plus 8
Post #825939 17th Apr 2020 7:15am
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Badger110



Member Since: 06 Feb 2018
Location: South hams
Posts: 1039

United Kingdom 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Buckingham Blue
As part of the build i considered using a complete bench seat in the front of the truck as i was going to utilise it as part of a bed set up ( similar to dormobile single seat/beds ).

For this i had to look around to find out how the law is with regards to bench seats up front or changing your current seating set up.

Department of transport aren't much use but looking into the IVA ( Individual Vehicle Approval ) manual which is the manual you follow when building a vehcile from scratch or changing it structurally amongst other things i did find some answers.

Firstly, the IVA manual on the Seats themselves

Quote:

1.Every seat must be securely attached to the vehicle structure, or other obvious suitable load bearing parts of the vehicle (see Notes 1, 2and 3).
2.Every seat mounting must be of adequate strength to support the loads likely to be imposed (see Notes 1, 2and 3).
3.Each seat, seat back adjustment and seat displacement system must incorporate an automatic locking system which operates in all positions provided for normal use.
4.A seat fitted with a displacement device to facilitate access by passengers must be fitted with an unlocking control which is accessible from outside the vehicle when the door is open. Where the seat immediately behind the seat concerned is designated for an adult, the unlocking control must also be easily accessible from this position.
5.The rear parts of the seats must not have rough or sharp edges likely to increase the risk of injury to the occupants. See Note 6
6.A system of head restraint must be fitted on every outboard front seat. 7.For outboard front seats the height of the top of the head restraint above the R point must be at least 700mm,(see Annex 1)taking into account Note 4.





The note sections relate to headrests and movable seats and it's alot of text and relevant to what i was going to do or introducing a middle seat to the Puma.


The seat belts are independant to the actual seats and the IVA has a section regarding seat belts;

Quote:


.Each seat requiring a belt must be fitted with a seat belt of the appropriate type. (see Annex 1)
2.For motor caravans, ambulances hearses and other special purpose vehicles where seats are intended for use when the vehicle is driven on public road are required to be fitted with seatbelts. Other seats must be marked with a pictogram or sign clearly indicating that the seat is not to be used whilst the vehicle is in motion.
3.Each seat belt must bear the appropriate approval marks or have the equivalent characteristics to that of a belt approved for the same category of vehicle to ensure the belt meets the required approval standards. (see Notes 1and 4)
4.Each seat belt must be attached by an appropriate fixing and be securely fitted (see Notes 2and 3)
5.There must be no damage to the seat belt structure that would affect its strength.
6.The lock mechanism must securely lock the belt
7.The lock mechanism must be able to be released easily, both in normal use and when the belt is under load. 8.With the seat belt fastened and the seat unoccupied, retractor mechanisms must take up any excess webbing. (see Note 5)
9.A retractor mechanism must be correctly positioned to ensure the correct operation of the belt (see Notes 6and 7)
10.The seat belt must sit correctly across the wearers torso so as to provide effective restraint in the event of a frontal impact (see Notes 9,10and11)
11.There must not be any sharp edges / objects in the seat belt area likely to cause damage to the belt. 12.The seat belt must be able to be stored so it is always readily accessible to use (see Note12)
13.Where an airbag is fitted in front of a passenger position, a warning label for the airbag must be permanently fixed to the vehicle
14.The warning label for the airbag must be visible in front of a person about to install a rearward facing child restraint (Figure 1)
15.The warning label for the airbag must be visible when the door is closed otherwise a permanent reference elsewhere that is visible at all times is required.
16.A harnessor three point belt “effective upper anchorage” location must be at least 450mm above the reference point. (see Figure 2)
17.A lap/diagonal belt “effective upper anchorage” location must be at least 140mm from the longitudinal centre line of the seat. (see Note 13)
18.The lower anchorages must be at least 350mm apart.The lower anchorages on side ward facing seatsmust be at least 350mm apart but no further apart than 500mm.


Again, i haven't included the notes section, but above is the guidelines for seat belts.

Below is the IVA's guidance on seat belt anchorage

Quote:
1.The vehicle as presentedmust be accompanied by satisfactory evidence of compliance with the required standard for “Seat Belt Anchorages”.
2.For vehicles with seat belts fitted to secure passengers in Side Facing Seats, the belt anchorage points, including the seat anchorage for belts mounted directly to a seat, must be securely attached to the vehicle structure, or other obvious suitable load bearing parts of the vehicle (see Note 1)



Note 1 for above was very important for me and i'll include it here;

Quote:
Note1:If attached to a thin metal floor, adequate support to spread the load of the anchorage is required, e.g. spreader plates of at least 75mm x 75mm x 4mm mild steel fitted under the floor, of the legs closest to the rear of the vehicle and between the leg and the top of the floor surface for the leg closest to the front of the vehicle



My opinion is, based on the information for the IVA manual is that there is no reason you can't put a middle seat in a Puma.

However, that's my opinion based on the information i've read regarding IVA's. You can find the manual here to make up your own mind;

IVA Manual


Going back to my idea of fitting a complete bench seat ( from a Bongo ) i would've passed all the stipulations from the IVA manual to do it, but i went for a different idea in the end for the bed in the rear.


Hope that helps you somewhat
Post #825965 17th Apr 2020 10:34am
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markb110



Member Since: 22 May 2010
Location: Guildford
Posts: 2620

England 2002 Defender 90 Td5 HT Epsom Green
Sitting in the middle at the front.

Legs over into the cramped passenger foot well, complete with passenger legs already installed

Constantly being elbowed in the stomach and chest as the driver changes gear every five minutes.

Hit in the jaw by the driver as he / she applies the handbrake

Constantly told to move your head when driver needs to see out of the rear view mirror

The feeling of being cut in half by the lap belt

The loss of circulation to your entire body

The concussion and loss of teeth during an emergency stop as head hits the dashboard.

The head through the windscreen during an accident due to the lap belt.

There you go , I think I have sold all the good reasons to have a centre front seat... Rolling with laughter
Post #825974 17th Apr 2020 10:50am
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Oldowner



Member Since: 26 Dec 2018
Location: South west
Posts: 616

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Aintree Green
I had a 2011 90 station wagon that had been dealer fitted with a centre seat at purchase, and registered correctly on the V5 as a five seater instead of four.

It was fitted with an Exmoor trim centre seat with headrest, which is based on the original Land Rover centre seat but with added headrest. It was fitted to seatbox in the factory pre tdci position and fixings. The seatbelt was a three point mounted over the shoulder / lap belt with spreader plates. It was a very good installation and in matching County Mondus trim.

In use the gear levers just touched the front of the centre seat in certain positions, however it was impossible to actually seat anyone up front. I removed it all at the first opportunity and refitted the correct cubby box.

I do have a poor quality photos of it in situ before it was removed.


Click image to enlarge


Post #826014 17th Apr 2020 3:15pm
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