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benniferj



Member Since: 20 Oct 2016
Location: Basingstoke
Posts: 361

United Kingdom 2003 Defender 110 Td5 XS CSW Oslo Blue
Alternator: Bypass excite wire question
Hey,
So my 200tdi has developed an issue that is going to be potentially one or two things. The alt charge keeps cutting out. I have a digital voltmeter direct to battery which either reads at around 12.4, 12.6 or 14.4, 14.7 when charging. However on a recent off road day (the car in question is a heavily modified 90 that gets some serious abuse) the red light started coming on on the dash and I was losing charge, volts sitting at 12.6 again. Intermittently it would kick back in, and I could force it to kick back in by using a loose bit of wire and jumping the excite terminal to the live terminal on the back of the alt.

I swapped out the alt for a known good one on site and same issue so I doubt very much it is 2 dodgy voltage regs for example.

I also have an intermittent slow start which I attribute to either the starter motor itself or a bad battery - gearbox - chassis earth. I am going to beast up these earths anyway when I get a chance.

Getting to the simple question though - is there a good reason to NOT just permanently jumper the alt excite terminal to the live on the alt? This is surely very similar to it receiving a batt live, via the dash switch, which is what normally keeps it energised anyway? (I understand how the batt red light is actually a live feed from ignition and when the vehicle is not running it earths, hence the light, and then when running, receives ignition running live and thus extinguishes when the alt starts running) - batt voltage is batt voltage right, whether direct or via a bit of extra wiring?

I do not foresee any battery drain as the entire ignition system and every electrical function of the car is run through a durite kill switch which is always disengaged when the vehicle is not running - so the coil will not remain energised at length when away from the vehicle which would cause parasitic drain?

So bridging the excite to the batt live will just make the system more reliable and remove the issue of a wiring loom fault between engine bay and dash? Basically simplifies the wiring, and I don't need a light to tell me theres an issue, the voltmeter will show me that which is adequate for me.

I hope that all makes sense, feel free to point out what im getting wrong if it won't work?

(I am going to shortly be running twin alternators, 3 batteries, so makes excite for the second alt a lot simpler too if no issues!)

Cheers!

Ben
Post #817092 26th Feb 2020 6:30pm
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jst



Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 8059

 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey
If the battery is fully charged the alternator will reduce its output.

On one of my setups the twin alts would charge 2 pairs of two batts (2 banks of batts) on a switched circuit between the two banks. When they were full the alt light would glow as the alt output decreased.

If you wire as you suggest if you have alt internal failure, there is no indication

Presume kill switch has diode to avoid spikes when all power is killed? Cheers

James
110 2012 XS Utility
130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper
90 2010 Hardtop
90 M57 1988 Hardtop
Post #817099 26th Feb 2020 7:21pm
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Marks Landy



Member Since: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 299

United Kingdom 1985 Defender 90 200 Tdi SW Java Black
Had the same issue last week on my 200TDI.

The Engine to chassis harness disconnect plug was full of green corrosion.

It wasn’t getting enough current to excite the alternator.

Fixed with a little wire bush!
Post #817134 26th Feb 2020 9:32pm
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rdavisinva



Member Since: 11 Sep 2020
Location: Chesapeake
Posts: 5

For many years the AC Delco 10SI was the most widely used alternator.
It came in 2 varieties: self exciting (without a warning light) and with a warning light.
The self exciting version had the field directly connected to the (+) lug internally.
This went directly or indirectly (through the starter solenoid) to the (+) battery post.
Both versions worked fine, but as mentioned in an above post by JST, a self exciting alternator does not provide a means to monitor the healthy or unhealthy alternator state.
Add a volt gauge and monitoring problem is solved.
Post #855572 12th Sep 2020 1:51am
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sako243



Member Since: 08 Jul 2014
Location: Wales
Posts: 1225

Wales 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi CSW Alpine White
Under normal circumstances DO NOT short the alternator field windings to the battery live. Unless the alternator is spinning then the windings are a dead short to ground. The light does not go out because the terminals are switched when the engine is running. The fact the alternator is spinning means that via the laws of electromagnetism a current is induced in the windings (and as one terminal is a dead short to ground) then that means the excite terminal voltage has to rise.

In your circumstances with an isolator then you could do it, but forget to isolate it after an event and you'll have a flat battery in no time at all.

Separately if you think about the circuit you have battery live -> ignition switch -> indicator light -> alternator field windings -> ground. There is no other switch as I mentioned above. You've (most likely) eliminated the alternator being faulty which means that in order for the indicator light to illuminate whilst the alternator is running that means you have a short to ground between the indicator light and the alternator. If you circumvent the problem by jumping the alternator terminals you still have an intermittent short to ground somewhere in the loom which will likely cause issues further down. If you've got one chaffed wire then you almost certainly have more on the way.

My recommendation - find the broken wire and fix it.

Sorry for the longer post but thought I'd explain why you should fix it not bodge around it. Ed
82 Hotspur Sandringham 6x6
95 Defender 110 300Tdi
Post #855627 12th Sep 2020 10:10am
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rdavisinva



Member Since: 11 Sep 2020
Location: Chesapeake
Posts: 5

So the way the ignition warning light works is when the key is switched on electrons flow from the (+) white circuit via the IG SW that is attached to one side making the bulb filament glow because the other side is attached to the alternator field (+) brown with yellow
When the engine is started, the alternator starts producing (+) current of equal voltage to the (+) current that the white circuit has and this makes the ignition warning light bulb filament stop glowing.
This is how the warning light works with a healthy alternator.

With an unhealthy alternator the ignition warning light stays on or will glow dim or intermittently when the engine is running.
With a bad alternator field the ignition warning light will never come on also never coming on can indicate a burned out bulb, circuit failure, or burned out alternator diodes.

sako243 brings up an interesting point I have never thought about before today, that if the field wire is connected to the battery will it run flat and if that is the case, you could connect a wire from the white IG circuit to the alternator field. Then when the key is switched off, there is no (+) current to the field coils.
Post #855638 12th Sep 2020 11:59am
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sako243



Member Since: 08 Jul 2014
Location: Wales
Posts: 1225

Wales 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi CSW Alpine White
Electrons are negatively charged and they "flow" from negative to positive... Ed
82 Hotspur Sandringham 6x6
95 Defender 110 300Tdi
Post #855639 12th Sep 2020 12:06pm
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