Home > Puma (Tdci) > Clutch sensor |
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BogMonster Member Since: 05 Feb 2008 Location: Stanley Posts: 400 |
Having fitted the BAS 150bhp autobiography remap (get one, it's brilliant) I am pondering whether to disable the clutch switch and see what it's like.
Before I start fiddling, can somebody confirm for sure whether the switch is normally open or normally closed? The 12MY onwards wiring diagram I have suggests that it's normally open, which would mean that simply disconnecting it would disable it, but I tried that (pre BAS tuning) and it was terrible all the time, which makes me think it must be the other way around i.e. normally closed but opens at some point in the cycle of depressing the clutch, which I think I'd seen suggested on here before. I also presume it's just a straight on/off and not a variable resistance that increases (or decreases) as the clutch position changes, but confirmation of that would be handy too. Thanks --- 2006 Defender 110 SW 300Tdi • 2011 Ford Ranger XLT crewcab • 2015 Defender 110 Station Wagon Utility TDCi |
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20th Dec 2018 10:05am |
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Martin Site Admin Member Since: 02 Apr 2007 Location: Hook Norton Posts: 6610 |
From the Puma workshop manual (my emphasis).
It's a normally closed switch, which is why it needs bridging if unplugged 1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top 2015 D90 XS SW |
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20th Dec 2018 10:19am |
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BogMonster Member Since: 05 Feb 2008 Location: Stanley Posts: 400 |
Thanks, odd that it's shown as normally open in the electrical manual.
Steve, what's it like in low range, and in particular does it do anything to the annoying 'rev lift' that low range brings with it? Mine quite often runs a fast idle, according to Pete it's part of the anti stall logic, and it's bloody annoying... Did you just chop the wires and join them, or get a plug of some sort and build a proper bridge? Paperclip might do for testing I guess... --- 2006 Defender 110 SW 300Tdi • 2011 Ford Ranger XLT crewcab • 2015 Defender 110 Station Wagon Utility TDCi |
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20th Dec 2018 11:13pm |
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ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816 |
Huh? Gear change rev hang? That’s a 2.2 feature only. The 2.4 never had that. Eric You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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21st Dec 2018 2:18am |
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blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17435 |
No, it's nothing to do with anti-stall, what you describe is a feature known as idle jack. Its purpose in a nutshell is to keep you alive on very steep descents when otherwise there would be excessive engine braking. I would be moderately interested to know why you find it "bloody annoying" since in a decade or so and 200k+ miles of TDCi ownership, using the vehicle for what it was designed (on and off road, heavy towing, etc), personally I have never found it a problem. Nothing you do to the clutch switch will affect it anyway, since the idle jack is switched by software and is activated when the engine ECU detects the appropriate relative engine and road speeds. I can't remember if disconnecting the high/low ration switch makes any difference, I think it may do, but if so you would also retain the high range throttle map in low range in this case. |
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21st Dec 2018 9:20am |
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custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20436 |
Bogmonster - It will stop the Rev increase in low range, but high range remains the same which is ideal.
I prefer it because it allows for a much better driver input and stops that ‘running away’ with its self feeling. Anti stall will remain working the same in all ranges. The connectors you’d need are J.P.T. Connectors, or junior power timer. Just create a bridge loop of wire and it’s fully sealed and factory reversible too. Eric - You are correct, maybe I should re-phrase what I said I found that happens in the instance of clutch switch failiure and various other poor driving characteristics. There is a definite difference to it, and I do prefer it. Blackwolf - I have found in high range little is changed at all that I’ve noticed. The idle jack / anti stall continues to work in all ranges. There is no longer the delay in gear changes which can make for a poor gear change, and allows for better driver input and feel. Low range the idle jack revs are dropped by about 100 rpm replicating high range idle revs. I think this is around 900 to 1000 rpm, but don’t quote me on that I think the latter springs to mind. Rather than the 1100 RPM as standard. I cannot comment on anything regarding this mod and the EGR however as mine is Alive stage 1 tuned with full EGR delete so I’m not sure how those two things may communicate without the EGR delete. Either way, I have been running this set up for nearly two years now with no problems. I much prefer it, and anyone who wishes to try can completely reverse it by an easy access plug in swap no wiring alteration needed at all. I would recommend having diagnostics though and also don’t just in-plug it like a TD5 would be if you WILL have problems for certain. It needs to be bridged as it’s a N/C switch not N/O. $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R 🇬🇧🏴🏴🏴🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪 |
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21st Dec 2018 11:19am |
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blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17435 |
I have to say that I am extremely surprised that the clutch switch has any affect on idle jack (which, incidentally, only activates when the low range transfer gears are selected). It must also be said that on my 2007 2.4 I have never experienced any "rev hang" (I have always understood this to be a 2.2 software 'enhancement'), nor any "delay" in gear changes. In general I think that the 2.4 Defender has significantly better gearchange and clutch characteristics than the Td5.
I have never felt any need to disable the clutch switch so have no direct experience of the many magical benefits which doing so brings! |
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21st Dec 2018 12:01pm |
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custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20436 |
There is a significant likelyhood that my clutch switch gave up the ghost as I did have a DTC before doing the mod.
So that may partially explain why. The idle jack on low range however is certainly different and I much prefer it. That certainly isn’t a faux effect. As I mentioned, it’s easy enough if anyone wanted to give it a go and if they don’t like it just unplug and switch back. Unusually its even easy access on a Puma engine! There is another member on here who has run the same as me with this for about a year on a 2.4 with no problems at all. On 2.2’s I could not comment on it. The main thing I prefer is just the lowered revs on low range but still anti stall will work perfectly. It allows you a really nice low range controlled trundle on lanes where you’d like to keep it slow. $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R 🇬🇧🏴🏴🏴🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪 |
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21st Dec 2018 12:40pm |
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BogMonster Member Since: 05 Feb 2008 Location: Stanley Posts: 400 |
Interesting - just repeating what Pete Bell said which was quote "the fast idle is part of the anti stall logic". I find it annoying because when I take my foot off the throttle I want the engine to idle, either to pick its way through or over something at minimum revs, or drop down a slope or into a ditch as slowly as possible. If I want 1100rpm or any other rpm up or down hill, I can use the throttle to get it, as long as the engine does what the driver and throttle tell it to, 1100rpm increases your minimum speed by about 25% which really isn't that handy at times. It isn't the end of the world but I just wish I could stop it because it adds nothing (for me) and takes away some element of control in situations where you really want it, and I say that having not really tested the capabilities to the full yet. I accept that this is only relevant to probably 1% of owners. I don't think I'll die off road, managed not to in a dozen or so different Land Rovers without it over 30 odd years It's such a pity there isn't just the option to configure the ECU to switch the 'features' on and off in some sort of 'expert mode', as the Puma with a remap is definitely growing on me. I'd love to have the ability to generate and tweak maps as I'd spend ages getting the last 1% exactly how I wanted it... --- 2006 Defender 110 SW 300Tdi • 2011 Ford Ranger XLT crewcab • 2015 Defender 110 Station Wagon Utility TDCi |
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21st Dec 2018 11:08pm |
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Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4216 |
I’ve mentioned this before, but not long after getting my Puma I went on a Protrax run training day with it. Ed Cobley, who ran the day claims some involvement in developing the Puma and spent quite some time showing how to get the best from the idle jack and the anti-stall, which are separate things. It apparently came about originally because the Ford gearbox already has a very low first gear for Transit use and in low range it was just too low to be useful, including the issue mention above with too much engine braking on decents. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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22nd Dec 2018 9:26am |
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BogMonster Member Since: 05 Feb 2008 Location: Stanley Posts: 400 |
Interesting. I guess it's really down to taste, and I've never really liked most of Land Rover's ideas for 'driver aids' - HDC was the most useless thing ever put on a car in my opinion. The anti-stall implementation in the Puma is one of the real exceptions and it's very capable. I assumed the rev lift was just to improve the anti-stall, I had never actually heard of 'idle jack' before now! Time to go and play with the clutch and hi-low switches...
Has anybody got a link to a UK supplier that will sell the appropriate plug for the clutch and/or the high-low - Steve? I'm not quite sure what I am looking for, but pretty sure that I won't find it here in the islands, and I'd rather the mod was reversible. Thanks. --- 2006 Defender 110 SW 300Tdi • 2011 Ford Ranger XLT crewcab • 2015 Defender 110 Station Wagon Utility TDCi |
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22nd Dec 2018 12:48pm |
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custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20436 |
Bogmonster - Try here: https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/680
They are a pretty good company, if they don't deliver to you. (Others out there may well do, should be fine though..) You'd need the 2 pole connectors, both male and female. The male plug will need pins and sealing grommets and a small wire loop, say 1mm2 or 1.5mm2. The female plug can just be the shell and seal the rear uo with silicone selant. This then fully protects the clutch switch connector left in situ. Then you can just tie the bridged male plug up to the side. Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R 🇬🇧🏴🏴🏴🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪 |
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22nd Dec 2018 6:07pm |
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BogMonster Member Since: 05 Feb 2008 Location: Stanley Posts: 400 |
Spot on, many thanks for that if they won't send here I'll get somebody in UK to order and post it down.
Tried the BAS remap today in low range with the high/low disconnected, and I'm actually pretty pleased with the result after running around for a couple of hours off road in both high and low range. The idle jack has gone, and there is still enough damping of the throttle over rough ground for kangaroo diesel not to be too much of an issue. Will order a couple of the plugs. Any idea what the high-low plugs are? I don't think they are the same? Similar sort of thing but they don't have the metal clip. --- 2006 Defender 110 SW 300Tdi • 2011 Ford Ranger XLT crewcab • 2015 Defender 110 Station Wagon Utility TDCi |
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22nd Dec 2018 8:42pm |
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custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20436 |
Blackwolf above if and when available would probably be best placed to comment on the hi/low switches etc than myself.
That is not a part that I've touched. As I'm sure you know and just to clarify this is the plug arrangement in my last post for the clutch switch and not the hi/low. $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R 🇬🇧🏴🏴🏴🇮🇪🇺🇸⛽️🛢️⚙️🧰💪 |
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22nd Dec 2018 9:39pm |
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