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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17450   
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You are joking, aren't you? If not, you need to read better sources and watch better videos! If you're towing a 3.5 tonne trailer, which way do you think the forces are acting? |
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17th Mar 2018 7:31pm |
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| KU310R Member Since: 16 May 2017 Location: Private Posts: 30 
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I might not have explained myself clearly before. Occasionally I might have to use it to recover a bogged vehicle using a snatch strap.
This is one of many videos where it clearly says that tow balls and snatch straps do not go well together. Due to the considerable amount of damage and possible danger concerned, I prefer to be safe rather than sorry. |
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17th Mar 2018 7:37pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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To be fair - the advice is good advice, always better to use a closed hook rather than an open one
 Click image to enlarge I've also seen this done - shackle cannot slip off over the top of the ball - but the fact that the shackle can bind in certain circumstances does not make it a regular option for recovery: |
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18th Mar 2018 9:58am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17450
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Ok, so that advice has nothing whatsoever to with downward forces or rearward forces. The threaded shank towball in the video is very unlikely to be rated to 3.5 tonnes, in the UK I have never found a threaded shank ball with a rating greater than 750kg, and I wouldn't even use one as a paperweight. A second point is that it is neither the towing nor the recovery per se that is dangerous, it is the snatch recovery. There is a reason why the UK military only allow this technique to be used with armoured vehicles, and it is a good one. There are very few attachments for a Defender that are rated in excess of the 3.5 tonne rating of a towball, and they are all four bolt attachments that fit directly on the rear crossmember (the choices are a genuine DB NATO pintle, a four-bolt pin jaw, or a four-bolt combined pin jaw and ball coupling, which is usually rated to 5 tonnes on the pin and 3.5 on the ball. Remember that there are no ball couplings rated in excess of 3.5 tonnes since this is the legal max). However remember that although most of these devices are rated to tow 5 tonnes gross, Landrover has never as far as I know approved a gross trailed weight in excess of four tons (imperial) on any standard crossmember. A standard, type approved towball is rated at 3.5 tonnes. A type approved combined pin jaw and ball (as illustrated a few posts above) is rated 3.5 tonnes on jaw and ball, and is no stronger than a ball. The most important thing to remember about snatch recoveries are that they have the potential to be exceptionally dangerous and should be avoided. If you need to snatch a stuck vehicle with a Defender the first conclusion is that the Defender is the wrong tool for the job, and the recovery should be left to a bigger vehicle. If it is is avoidable and a more suitable vehicle is not available, then assume that the attachments at either end are likely to fail and take steps to arrest them safely if they do by use of catch straps attached to other strong points. When you first posted your question you said nothing about snatch recovery, rather the opposite end of the recovery spectrum:
So which is it? Do you want to tow a small van or car in the street, or carry out a snatch recovery of a heavily bogged vehicle? |
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18th Mar 2018 10:48am |
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| KU310R Member Since: 16 May 2017 Location: Private Posts: 30
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I understand your reasoning perfectly and that's why I was asking for advice and help. As I said earlier I am still learning and open to hearing opinions from others.
Regarding my tow bar I am not sure how much tonnage it is rated for. My intention is to go for a dixon-bate tow ball as that seems to be the best solution for my needs. Thanks once again! Last edited by KU310R on 20th Mar 2018 10:15pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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19th Mar 2018 8:47pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Well good luck to you - everyday is a school day for all of us...if you stop asking questions, you stop learning.
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20th Mar 2018 8:33am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17450
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If it is a genuine LR fitment it will be rated at 3.5 tonnes gross trailed weight. |
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20th Mar 2018 10:15am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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and to underline the dangers involved...
https://mr4x4.com.au/man-killed-snapped-re...ter+%23204
"At this time not a great deal is known, however the strap being used has broken, or the point it was attached to on the front of the bogged vehicle has snapped causing it to fly through the rear windscreen and hit the driver in the head." A bit unclear on the details but outcome is clear. 
It's not the first time I've seen this given as advice also: Click image to enlarge "Tow-balls โ DO NOT USE AS A RECOVER POINT. EVER." |
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22nd Mar 2018 7:54am |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with your point about tow balls, I can't see how the incident you've related is relevant as it didn't involve one
 Darren
110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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22nd Mar 2018 8:04am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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I'm definitely not saying the incident did involve a tow ball but equally you cannot read into the article that it did not.
The relevant point is "The incident serves as a timely warning, both to ensure youโre using the appropriate equipment, and as safely as possible." Also, the article included the warning label regarding using a tow ball as a recovery point. I thought this was relevant to the discussion above as people, including myself, have seen it done/were offering advice on how to do it. |
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22nd Mar 2018 9:15am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17450
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So I wonder which is actually stronger: a properly fitted coupling on the rear cross-member (which is both tested and probably type approved) or a pair of genuine JATE rings (which are undoubtedly tested but not type approved, and for which no figures are published). In which would you put your trust?
Then reconsider the question but with the words "genuine JATE rings" replaced with "Britpart JATE rings"! 
I know where I would put my trust. Mind you I would also be sensible and not overload the recovery points, and would also take steps to ensure that if anything did break it was arrested before it hit anyone or anything. Incidentally I have heard of towballs and couplings becoming detached from vehicles during recoveries, I have heard of bits of vehicles being ripped off during recoveries, but I have never heard of a towing jaw, pintle, or towball breaking during a recovery. In fact, I have never heard of a UK-spec, 3.5 tonne rated, towball breaking at all, ever. I don't know if it is still the case, but back in the 70's and 80's when I did a fair bit of trialling with the AWDC, the preferred recovery point was a 3.5 tonne towball mounted ' on its back' with the ball facing back towards the vehicle. I have seen some monumental and terrifying snatches applied to these without any problems whatsoever. The only essential was to make sure that the forged body of the ball had no sharp edges. |
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22nd Mar 2018 9:37am |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8582
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Looking at the photograph of the broken strap some observations.
Before anyone asked I used to make caving and climbing webbing equipment and have deliberately broken sewn slings on tensile test machines. The edge of the strap shows sign of wear so question arises about condition of the straps being used. What material were the straps made from? Nylon, polyester or worse still polypropylene? Now the rats nest being held up in the photograph it is unclear how various straps have been joined together. My GUESS is that not best practise has been followed there. Now from that article it is NOT clear what actually caused the fatal injury. Was it a flying chunk of metal or was it the broken strap? I am struggling with the idea of a broken strap flying through a laminated window going forward say 1-2 metres with enough energy to cause fatal injury. A shackle etc yes.
Why are they using a photograph of a broken rats nest of straps? Basically grab a photograph of the net and write away?? Apart from the information a 51 year old man has been killed in a recovery situation there is no real information in that report of what actually caused the fatality. Now they talk about using a winch/recovery damper. No mention of use of a sacrificial rope. Please learn the differences between different materials Please learn how to join a strap to a bridle correctly Please learn how to join straps together without the use of metal shackles Please learn good practise and techniques which includes inspecting recovery points and the use of a SHOVEL which can reduce the forces involved. Stay safe Brendan |
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22nd Mar 2018 10:41am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17450
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Looking at the photo I felt that it was unlikely that that was the actual strap in question, because I find it impossible to believe that anyone, even the most abject of morons, would use a strap in that condition for any purpose other than a rubbish bin filler.
I rather assumed that the strap photo was simply an attention grabber for the article. |
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22nd Mar 2018 10:51am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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OK off topic but this one alarmed me:
Click image to enlarge Full video here: https://jalopnik.com/heres-why-you-never-e...1769265863 |
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22nd Mar 2018 2:25pm |
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