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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17502   
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Copied from another forum, an American comment currently doing the rounds. No doubt produced by the sceptics but it contains much food for thought.
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7th Sep 2017 5:13pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 422 
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Submarines operate with electric engines. Batteries are completely sealed, otherwise you'd have trouble anyway (the Bollinger B1, for instance, has a wading depth of 1m). Current Defenders have batteries and electrics. Electric engines don't require an exhaust or an air intake (e.g. a snorkel). |
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7th Sep 2017 6:10pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 422
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You can charge electric cars in a few minutes to continue travelling. Range is increasing and if it was a proper Defender style vehicle, you could upgrade accordingly (as the Bollinger B1 allows). Electricity can be generated by nuclear, wind, solar and water, resulting in very low or no CO2 compared to petrol or diesel. Of course building batteries isn't environmentally great, but I believe it has been calculated to overall be of much smaller impact than fossil fuels. I agree, however, that it seems unlikely that Land Rover would do anything like a 'real' Defender in terms of price, ability and character. That indeed would be properly sad, and yes, Jeep seems to be doing a pretty decent job of continuing their own legacy. It's difficult to understand why Land Rover feels almost embarrassed by their legacy. They seem completely focused on their 'premium' philosophy. |
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7th Sep 2017 6:18pm |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816  
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Wind, solar and water have a lot of limitations. European countries like Germany and Switzerland are committing to phase out nuclear altogether. Others will follow, supposedly for environmental reasons. Reality is that nuclear plants are all being pushed already way beyond their planned life expectancy, but a point is coming where they will have to shut down for good. Building new nuclear plants for most countries and with current regulations today has become prohibitively expensive, there just are no budgets for that anymore.
So what is left as alternative for the ever increasing electricity needs, including for those electric cars? Coal. 
Coal is cheap, old coal plants are already coming back on line now. Building new coal plants costs a fraction of building a new nuke plant. Start coughing. 
Eric You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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7th Sep 2017 6:37pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 422
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It's true that wind/solar/water are not without issues, depending on the geography. Nuclear should be the backbone for many places now. Thorium looks like a promising source of fuel for the future there. Unfortunately due to some questionable politics, a few countries are playing dumb on that one. Having said that, I remember reading that modern coal plants are surprisingly clean (I don't have the data on me right now, however).
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7th Sep 2017 6:55pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Blackwolf, let me give you my figures. I have a BMW i3 fully electric: I charge it up about once a week. Sometimes it will go for almost two weeks. I charge it via a 13 amp socket, the garden socket. I pay just 9p per kWh for my electric, so to fully charge costs something like a pound (I think - I've never worked it out to the penny). That will give me 140 miles. To fully charge from flat to full takes about 8 or 9 hours on a 13 amp socket. If I want a rapid charge, it takes about 45 minutes at a rapid charger (usually on the motorways, but increasingly in towns). According to the RAC, the average car travels just 20 miles a day (on average). The National Grid, when asked, have stated that the coming of fully-electric vehicles in 2040 will require an increase in generation of just 8%. They responded due to the wild and inaccurate reporting in the press by idiots with no knowledge of our electrical generation and supply. I'm not 'green' and not really eco-friendly. However, I live in a big town that is full of diesel fumes. I want to drive around knowing that I won't get lung cancer from the big white Transit in front of me. If I had my way, all town & city centres would be off-limits to ICE vehicles. A few weeks ago I watched an estate car belch black smoke all over three little kids walking along. That's not right. The bit in your piece about Tesla cars makes no sense to me, as a rapid charger just isn't necessary unless you do a high mileage. The average car driver in Britain does 7,000 miles a year. So the draw on the electrical grid just wouldn't happen. The vast majority of drivers will be trickle charging. Similarly, the piece about the Chevy Bolt is just totally bizarre. Electric cars are the future, it's inevitable. I'm far from 'green' but we can't continue belching out smoke over kids. I absolutely love my i3. I've had it for a year now, and I found the pleasure in driving again. It's so incredibly whisper quiet that I don't even put the radio on - because it will spoil it. Electric cars are far from perfect - the electric still has to be generated somewhere. The charging network is a joke, and long journeys have to be planned, with charging stations pre-booked. The system has too many players, and you have to sign up with them and pay an annual fee - in addition the the cost of the electric, which is about £5. As a Land Rover fan of some years, and someone who daily reads old LRO mags, and dreams of building a 90 pick up, or a lifted V8 Disco, I fully understand others' love of the Defender, and get-you-anywhere 4x4s. If I want, I can take my diesel-engined vehicle out now, and literally drive around the world. That's an incredible freedom. But things change. I read some comments from people on this forum that are as opposed to getting rid of diesel as they would be giving their kids away. But we really shouldn't be throwing cancer-causing chemicals over those kids in the street. I think that we will all go electric-only before 2040, I really do. And I think it can't happen soon enough. |
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7th Sep 2017 8:38pm |
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| Sockpuppet Member Since: 17 Sep 2011 Location: Leicester Posts: 479
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The biggest issue to going electric is not the extra generation capacity but the infrastructure needed for charging at the dispensing end. At the moment it's not an issue as most people with electric cars have big houses with drives.
How we're going to charge electric cars of those people that don't have drive ways, can't park outside their house (or like I used to be able not to do) even park in the same street where I live. Who is going to pay the billions needed for that extra infrastructure needed to have a charging point where any car is going to be parked. It's partly why I favor hydrogen and still visiting a place to fill up as it does away with this need. The billions for the extra infrastructure can't come from the cost savings of switching to electric because in the long term there will be no cost savings and running an electric car will have to cost exactly the same as running a petrol/diesel. Well either that or the govt is going to have a £30 billion hole in it's finances. Fuel duty is 3.5% of all UK tax receipts - that is a big hole to fill. I agree I care not how my car is powered. Just as long as it does what I need it to do. I'd prefer it to be electric now but there are too many issues that need to be solved first. |
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7th Sep 2017 9:54pm |
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| Pickles Member Since: 26 May 2013 Location: Melbourne Posts: 3787  
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sockpuppet,....+1.
Try an electric car in the Aussie "open spaces"!! Pickles. |
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7th Sep 2017 10:01pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17502
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What Puddle?, I should point out that the views in the article I posted are not my views but I felt it was an interesting discussion piece and does raise several valid and interesting concerns.
Electric vehicles certainly have an important role in urban and suburban transportation but I doubt that they will ever be an effective substitute for all applications of the infernal combustion engine. It is also ironic that at more or less the same time that the Government is announcing the end of the infernal combustion engine on roads they are cancelling railway electrification projects and committing the railways to diesel power for decades to come. It's about time that it became acceptable to mention the real problem that the human race faces, namely the uncontrolled, unregulated, and rapidly increasing overpopulation of a resource-limited planet. |
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7th Sep 2017 10:09pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Blackwolf, yes, I understand they weren't your words, but a US article. I'm interested to grasp what you're saying about the railways, because here in Berkshire they have done the exact opposite. We have the main'Great Western' line running through. They have just spent £1 billion (yes, £1 billion, part of a further £4 billion) on a major Crossrail infrastructure junction in Reading AND electrification of the line. It's caused huge ruptions out in the countryside, through very expensive villages round here. And it looks terrible. There are huge steel pylon erections every 100 yards or so all the way along the line. They just suddenly started appearing and even I (someone who usually lets the world move on) think they've completely spoilt the skyline in so many places.
You've touched on one of my favourites. I've been boring my family with dire warnings about UK population for some time. I find it bizarre that it isn't being mentioned in the press the whole time. We are sleep-walking into massive over-population here. The government estimates that the UK's population is growing at around 500,000 a year. However, the Home Office recently stated that doesn't include 150,000 illegal immigrants coming in every year (unaccounted for, except for NHS numbers, that do record it). That means a rise of 650,000 people every year. And that's just the government figures. If we're generous and say it's at least 700,000, that means a population rise of 7 MILLION people in just 10 years. And yet our whole infrastructure from electricity to GP surgeries is struggling with the population now! We have to get a grip on immigration (no matter what your stance is on Brexit!). Foreign-born women now residing here are giving birth at a much-higher rate than British women. We are going to have to make some decisions that don't sit too well with some people. I agree with Sockpuppet's views on electric infrastructure. Clearly, though, there is going to be a nationwide project to put chargers on the streets, just like parking meters. My niece has just moved into a lovely flat in Newbury - part of a massive development...and there isn't a hint of making any of it EV-friendly in the future. I spoke to their rep (as my wife and I were interested in the penthouse) and he admitted to being an EV-hater, and said the developers had no wish to get involved in providing points. The car-parking doesn't lend itself to charging points. |
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8th Sep 2017 6:59am |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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The current (no pun intended) push for electric cars is wholly driven by the need to reduce pollution in big cities rather than saving the planet on a larger scale. As a result, arguments about them not being suitable for farmers and others who live and work in the countryside, or for use in the wide open spaces of Aus are meaningless. Similarly with trains, electrification of main lines won't and never was intended to solve those issues either.
Despite the electrification of the Great Western mainline, or more likely because of the huge cost and delays in completing it, further projects into South Wales have been cancelled, which is what Blackwolf was referring to. Darren 110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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8th Sep 2017 7:50am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Has it been cancelled? I thought it had just been delayed.
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8th Sep 2017 8:14am |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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The work beyond Cardiff to Swansea and into the Valleys has been cancelled.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40665659 Darren 110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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8th Sep 2017 8:20am |
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| 22900013A Member Since: 23 Dec 2010 Location: Oxfordshire Posts: 3150 
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The whole argument about generating for the charging points is valid, but I don't think it is really understood. Imagine you have a village supplied by two transformers, well when they design the network so I understand, those two transformers running at full load would not be enough to power everything in all the houses they supply. Realistically, you don't have several houses all running everything at the same time, so there is rarely an impact. With EV charging, the usage pattern will change, as you will be getting big surges of use at certain times (usually in the early evening when folk get home from work) so no, the infrastructure will not necessarily cope. We can probably generate the electricity easily enough, the issue is stepping it down and getting it to the changing points reliably. At work we have to pass the information on if we discover a changing point, it is something they are interested in and I imagine want to ensure the network can cope. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton 1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker 1969 IIA 1-Ton 1966 IIA 88" |
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9th Sep 2017 7:55am |
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