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Cupboard

Member Since: 21 Mar 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 2971

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 HT Corris Grey

Are EGR and MAF error codes related?

On the way to the Defender tour yesterday, my 110 went in to limp along, which was a bit annoying. Although it can still quite happily cruise at 70 on the flat and 60 up reasonably steep hills so isn't that much of an issue. Last time it did that was on the way home from the LRO show so I think it's embarrassed to see other Land Rovers

Anyway.
The faults showing according to my IID Tool were:

Quote:
IPC-Instrument Pack

• U0100-87 (20) Lost communication with engine control module/powertrain control module 'A' - Bus signal/message failure - missing a message

• P1602-31 (40) Immobilizer/engine control module communication error - Frequency modulation/pulse width modulation failure - no signal

• U0401-68 (40) Invalid data received from engine control module/powertrain control module - Algorithm based failure - event information

PCM-Engine Puma 2.4

• P0480-23 (2 Fan 1 control circuit - General signal failure - signal stays low
( on 26-01-2016 18:15:30 at 0 km )

• P0404-73 (10) Exhaust gas recirculation control - circuit range/performance - Mechanical failure - actuator is stuck closed
( on 26-01-2016 18:15:30 at 0 km )

• P1103-00 (6F) Mass air flow sensor in range but higher than expected
( on 26-01-2016 18:15:30 at 0 km )

• P0606-49 (10) Engine control module/powertrain control module processor - System internal failure - internal electronic failure
( on 26-01-2016 18:15:30 at 0 km )

• P0100-29 (40) Mass or volume air flow circuit - General signal failure - signal is invalid
( on 26-01-2016 18:15:30 at 0 km )

• P0234-00 (6F) Turbo/supercharger overboost condition
( on 26-01-2016 18:15:30 at 0 km )

• P1643-87 (2 CAN link engine control module/ transmission control module circuit/network malfunction - Bus signal/message failure - missing a message
( on 26-01-2016 18:15:30 at 0 km )

Now most of those are always there and I know 1103, the MAF one, is a common nuisance. These are the "tested" list rather than including the untested ones. If I've understood the menu correctly.

I cleared them all, tootled off up the road but after 15-25 miles it would go back in to limp, sometimes with the fault light on, more often without. The codes that keep coming back (according to the Ultragauge I have fitted) are 1103 and 0234. I haven't put the IID Tool back in again to see what else is there. Sometimes the Ultraguage would bleep that there was a fault, but that didn't always seem to coincide with a loss of power. It would seem to happen when under fairly light load, it never died whilst I was overtaking something, I'd just come to put my foot down and nothing much would happen.

Other symptoms... bit of white smoke on a cold start and slightly lumpy idle until warm. Dead spot under hard acceleration around 2300RPM. Clattery under light load when cruising. Sounds sweet as anything if you put your foot down though. Sometimes runs a lot less clattery than others. Nasty above 2900RPM but I'm not sure that's a fault!

Is it a take it in to a garage job? Get a remapper to remove the EGR? New MAF sensor? Give it to Caterham?

Thanks in advance.

19th Jan 2016 1:27pm

Cupboard

Member Since: 21 Mar 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 2971

MIL keeps coming back now, but it's not limping any more.

I've done a load more reading, and think my next course of action is a replacement MAF, then if that doesn't fix it blank the EGR, and if that make it drive better I'll get BAS to remove it.

The Britpart MAF is listed as "OEM" and is 1/3 the price of a genuine one. Does the fact it's cheap mean it's rubbish, or the fact it's "OEM" mean it's OK?

23rd Jan 2016 10:49am

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20382

Do you have an OE factory map with working EGR?

23rd Jan 2016 2:58pm

Happyoldgit

Member Since: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 3471

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey

Britpart stuff is always going to be chancy. Steve.
Owned numerous Land Rover vehicles of all shapes and sizes over the decades.
Current Defender: A non tarts hand-bagged Puma 110 XS USW.

[Insert something impressive here such as extensive list of previous Land Rovers or examples of your prestigeous and expensive items, trinkets, houses, bikes, vehicles etc]

http://forums.lr4x4.com

I used to be Miserable ...but now I'm ecstatic.

23rd Jan 2016 4:21pm

Cupboard

Member Since: 21 Mar 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 2971

custom90steve wrote:
Do you have an OE factory map with working EGR?

OE factory map yes. Working EGR, I think so! It does the 5 chukkas, so long as the error codes haven't come up (and they haven't since Monday) the UG is reporting it's values changing.

Monday I had repeated error codes of 0234 and 1103 with occasional 0404 but rarely the MIL light. Since then I've had the MIL more, but only the 1103 codes and no limp. The flip side is that whilst I've done plenty of miles this week, I haven't done any motorway miles because we don't have them in Norfolk! Still the short stretches of dual carriageway we do have has been fine (saving the light and 1103).

I've read through all the posts I can find on EGR and MAF, and be the sounds of things a dodgy MAF will affect lots of other things.

I've sent Duckworths a PM about a new MAF and some other stuff, so waiting to hear pricing there.

23rd Jan 2016 5:15pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20382

Without reasearching each code, the EGR tends to affect the MAF not the other way around.
I would tend to think your problem is EGR related, and it can still cause problems even though it appears to be doing it's cleaning cycles.

My EGR is shafted right now but mine is Alive remapped with EGR off, so no problems at all since.
Best thing I did!

MAF's are about £100 and EGR's £170.

I've ran on original Genuine MAF with no issues, the EGR however, was a whole different story!

I changed mine for a brand new one (EGR) and it wasn't a year or two before it started playing up again with no justification to it AND it was doing cleaning cycles and putting on the MIL.

A couple of EGR's every few years and you'd have a remap paid for which has other benefits to it as well.

EGR and MAF costs are exc fitting too, EGR's prove very expensive. If you do get I did and change yourself you'll know what a pain they are to do as well.
Done say you can clean them, but even if you sucessfully do which can be hit and miss they'll clog again...

I also agree eith MOG above, stick to Genuine.

Last edited by custom90 on 23rd Jan 2016 6:43pm. Edited 1 time in total

23rd Jan 2016 5:48pm

Cupboard

Member Since: 21 Mar 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 2971

I'm certainly not going to spend money on a new EGR, that would seem silly!
Thing I don't get is that it used to be £30-40, it's now more like £100.

This thread has been helpful:

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic8876.html

dgardel wrote:

Should be related to the EGR Valve (If stuck the MAF dectect more air flow than expected...)

tatra805 wrote:
Hi

going to throw in my experiences with this specific issue.

The story in short,

Bought the 110 and drove it home for 1600kms without problems, it is a 2007 and had 59 000km

In the next days while waiting for the paperwork and license plates i installed the mantec RAI.
Drove to the technical control and MIL light came on.

LR dealer erased the code, diagnosis was or MAF but most probably EGR valve

In the mean time i had found Defender2 and searched everything i could find related to this issue.
I got the impression it was going to be the EGR valve after reading all the threads.

Kept driving for another 5000km while monitoring behavior, consumption and EGR functionality (using a scangauge).

I had an increase from 10 to 12 liters/100km(effective not through scangauge) when the EGR stuck to readout value 100. So i had to start the car multiple times till the EGR stuck on a value less than 30 to get back to the 10 l/100km consumption.

I dismantled the EGR and looked at it while running the engine, all was working as it should and the valve was clean. (cleaning cycle runs ok etc)

I drove around without RAI to see if that would make a difference, no. RAI back on.

Tried cleaning the MAF, no change.

After reading this dedicated thread i finally went to the dealer for a new MAF.

The change is instant. Where the EGR valve used to be stuck on some random value (although most of the time at 100) it is now dynamic, say between 10 and 30 while driving with 100 values at full throttle and on heavy overrun.

Engine runs smoother also on idle jack and in low range less urging etc (i thought it to be normal and now realize it was not) Much more enjoyable drive.

So guess I can end with saying big thanks for sharing

Lorryman100 wrote:
When everything is working as advertised the Duratorq engine runs like a little sweetie, but when one sensor starts giving erroneous readings or none at all, I have found symptoms start appearing that have nothing to do with the faulty sensor causing the problem in the first place. A faulty MAF leads to more fuel being burnt and more/less air than is needed as the EMS is then relying on its stored values to compensate for the lost data. This can lead you to think the EGR is to blame as it is staying open longer at high revs when it should be closed because the EMS is not getting the correct info from the MAF sensor and is relying on the stored data rather than the real time data the MAF should be supplying. Another example would be turbo over/under boost which could lead you to think the turbo/modulator/actuator is at fault but chances are it is the MAP sensor that is causing the problem. The sensors are designed to aid the running of the engine via the EMS but when something goes wrong, then it is a matter of checking the outputs of the most likely candidates before spending a lot of money on replacing what could be, the wrong part. We are a little lucky with the Defender Puma as there are not too many things that can go wrong electrically in what is basically a modern engine and if you have the correct diagnostic tools, it even tells you what is wrong with it, or at least gives you a good starting place to fault find. I see the electrics side of the EMS as the biggest headache in fault finding unless you have a decent DMM and a handheld vehicle oscilloscope to interpret the data being received, though this doesn't help if you have nothing to compare it against, so take some sensor readings next time you have a spare half hour and note them down, then when checking for a fault you already have the sensor outputs to compare to see if that sensor is indeed causing the issue.
So I guess what I am trying to say is that you should keep an open mind as to what is causing the problem before settling on what you think it is, when you get an issue, think of what could cause these symptoms then go out and check each part that can cause it, that way you learn a little more about your defender and gain a little more confidence in your own fault finding abilities, and if you are out of warranty you can also save yourself a few quid.

Brian

PS: I'll apologize now for the above drivel I have written

23rd Jan 2016 6:09pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20382

Interesting reading, my MAF could do with changing due to age.

I know what you mean about the prices, they were about £150 a couple of years against and it's even more now.

The part which I cannot understand is I thought the very purpose of the system was for fault detection and to improve the quality of running of the engine.

Not to have one item with an issue affect another electronically and make it look like another issue all together.
The completely defies the logic of it's purpose to flag and diagnose some faults.

Makes it somewhat an expensive game of Russian Roulette of swapping parts that may be at fault.

The P1103 as K9F suggests is nothing but a pest, one that I haven't personally suffered from but is nothing more than a nuisance.

I'd stick with it for now and see how it goes, if it keeps it up on a permanent basis then it's time to take action.
It may sort it's self out after multiple driving cycles.

23rd Jan 2016 6:54pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

"Mechanical failure - actuator is stuck closed" isn't this possibly the root cause of the other issues?

23rd Jan 2016 9:35pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20382

^^^^ That's what I was thinking, it suggests the EGR is stuck closed.
Better than being stuck open or there would be bigger problems if that was the case.

This is exactly what I had when it was doing this before I got a map.
I hoped it would sort it's self out after a while, it didn't it stayed on permanently until I changed EGR.
And then with a new one a year or two later it started again, seriously hacked off be then and went down the Remap route.
Best choice I made.

23rd Jan 2016 9:49pm

Cupboard

Member Since: 21 Mar 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 2971

It could be the EGR, I don't know.

From what I've read since my first post, and I thought I'd read quite a lot before posting, they both cause problems with each other. What's putting me more towards the MAF is that's the code that keeps coming back is the MAF one. It's had MAF error codes before, a few months ago, which then went away again.

That's not to say there's nothing suggesting it's the EGR either though!

One thing I don't understand is the relationship between limp, warning lights and error codes. You can have tested DTCs logged but no sign of them, you can have limp but no warning light, warning light but no limp, and both together. On Monday I had one occasion were the lamp came on and loads of limp mode. During the week I've had the lamp (despite being reset it kept coming back) but no limp, then Friday and Saturday no pending codes, no tested codes, no limp, no light. Those two days I haven't been far, maybe 60 miles, but the engine has warmed up properly and had some short and some longish runs.

24th Jan 2016 11:39am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

MAF will always come back as it's monitoring other things and so symptomatic. The reading you are getting is higher but within range - that means that the MAF is actually working.

I'd start with the error code that lets you know something is actually wrong - the stuck actuator. This may of course be intermittent and only stick when it gets driven to the extreme of it's range.

25th Jan 2016 9:18am

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20382

Another thing I used to notice and dome thing you can't always help, it's prone to getting stuck more in cold weather.
It can get stuck permanently, luckily in this case closed and not open.
And last but not least lots of short trips seems to Coke them more and they play up more.

As above, my money is on the stuck EGR.
This is putting MAF readings out as well as general performance, but the MAF is working.

I'd suggest either new EGR or remap. The latter is a permanent fix.

25th Jan 2016 11:04am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

What about taking it off for a clean - just seeing if it's clogged first and then if you can bench test it to see if it moves freely through it's full range?

Are the actuators replaceable on their own or is it a complete unit swap?

25th Jan 2016 11:12am

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20382

AFAIK, LR sell complete units only, no parts.
Part and partially (pardon the pun) due to the likelyhood of cleaning not being a suitable fix.

Some people seem to get very little EGR trouble for years, others lots of it even after changing the dammed things.

25th Jan 2016 4:26pm

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