 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Puma 2.2 judders/kangaroos 1st and 2nd |
 
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| redzob Member Since: 16 Jul 2014 Location: St. Peter Port Posts: 137   
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Interesting observation about the anti-stall. Its always felt to me that the two might be related? But then im just a simple owner... Defender Puma 2.2 XS 90
Vespa GTS 300 Way too many racing bikes. |
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10th Nov 2014 12:12pm |
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| Jim_Bean Member Since: 10 May 2011 Location: Staffordshire / Shropshire border Posts: 613  
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Mine is awful. Has always done this.
Did it before a BAS remap - still does it now. After 19k of driving i just instinctively dump the clutch when it starts doing it and bring it back up slowly. |
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10th Nov 2014 12:29pm |
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| JWL Member Since: 26 Oct 2011 Location: Hereford Posts: 3443  
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Don't take this the wrong way, ie think that I'm trying to tell you how to drive, but have you tried other Defenders? I drive my Td5 every day, it's my only vehicle and I do everything from the school run to long holiday trips so I think I know how to drive it. Last year I took a ½ day test drive at Eastnor Land Rover Experience in a 2.2 Defender and I am ashamed to say that it took me a couple of attempts to leave the Bothy as I kept stalling it. It is soon mastered but is totally different to driving the Td5. Even worse was when I jumped back into mine to drive home and stalled mine! First time in years, damn these Defenders can be tricky little blighters
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10th Nov 2014 12:32pm |
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| rover Member Since: 26 May 2012 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 146
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Looks like it is a problem for lots of 2.2 defender owners whether you feel you can drive round it or not.
Just wish Land rover would admit there is a problem and solve it, it can't be that hard can it, my 300tdi and td5 did'nt do it so whats the problem with this one. |
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10th Nov 2014 12:40pm |
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| munch90 Member Since: 26 Oct 2013 Location: guildford Posts: 3558
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and I thought the 2.4 wasn't the best ,but by this the 2.2 sounds 10 times worse
went in a td5 decatted , chipped etc the other day and couldn't believe the bl@@dy noise , done about 2 miles and that was enough of that |
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10th Nov 2014 12:42pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17368 
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As a 2.4 owner I find this thread both interesting and rather depressing. I was thinking vaguely of trading in my 2.4 against one of the last 2.2s, but the more I read about the "issues" with 2.2s the more convinced I become to stick with the vehicle I know.
For the record I have to say that my 2.4 is (subject to the usual driveline clonks) very smooth, and will drive itself along quite happily on tickover in 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd gears with no throttle input whatsoever. The only thimes I have ever experienced any kind of lurching or juddering pulling away and accelerating with when the VCV on the fuel pump has been playing up. The torque characteristics of the 2.4 mean that I usually let in the clutch with no or negligible throttle input (especially pulling away uphill, when I no longer bother with the handbrake), and it does this very well. As soon as you provide throttle input of course the anti-stall is disabled (it only works with no pedal input) and I wonder if maybe the transition from antistall/no-pedal control to pedal control is the problem. It is on the face of it hard to understand how LR managed to take a system which works rather well on the 2.4 and mess it up so thoroughly on the 2.2, given the similarity of the engine and the task to be achieved. |
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10th Nov 2014 1:01pm |
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| munch90 Member Since: 26 Oct 2013 Location: guildford Posts: 3558
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If im honest I think the 2010 onwards are more trouble then the early 2.4's
reading some of the problems on here , it seems the earlier the better I wouldn't change my 2.4 for a 2.2 bad workmanship seem to me to be the main of the problems |
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10th Nov 2014 1:12pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Even 50 negative posts on here again the volume of units sold would suggest that it's not a problem - in the same way as a leaking bulkhead or differential. Who's to know what additional issues a fix to this one woud provoke? I'd urge those who haven't driven a 2.2 to see for themselves if there is an issue for them. However, roll on 2016 and the new V6s and V8s we are going to get (I hope!). |
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10th Nov 2014 1:20pm |
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| Howard650 Member Since: 25 Aug 2014 Location: York Posts: 14 
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With myself I believe it was just getting used to the Vehicle as the last landy I drove was in the Military in 91. The TDCI is very different beast to my last 4x4 which was a Navara. Now I have a couple of thousand miles in I have no problems, no clunks and no Kangaroo.
As far as it goes for me I am very happy! |
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10th Nov 2014 9:14pm |
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| DieselYoda Member Since: 09 Dec 2014 Location: Hunsruck Posts: 17 
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The issue is poor optimization of the torque control during a control strategy function called gear change optimization.It is an inbuilt characteristic of the 2.2L Defenders as to much emphasis was placed on reducing drive line clunk.The design characteristic of the 2.2L Puma engine makes for a better drive in the lower torque and rev band than the 2.4L if it is calibrated correctly.There is a fix for this concern,but it is beyond the technical scope of the current tuners.Once the necessary software update is ready i will let all know.
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10th Dec 2014 12:01am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17368
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Wow, now that's an interesting and provocative first post! DieselYoda, any chance of some kind of introduction - who you are and what you do? And for that matter the source of your technical superiority over the experienced tuners and remappers who participate in this forum?
Provocative or patronising? |
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10th Dec 2014 9:45am |
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| DieselYoda Member Since: 09 Dec 2014 Location: Hunsruck Posts: 17
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Hello blackwolf,
I am not here to provoke or patronize,but to share and guide.I deal with technical fact not emotion and to this end must look at a situation for what it is. In my technical arena we are few in number compared to the mass of people you find on an engineering development team. It is rare that one of us step outside to interact with the public as i have done,but the complexity of what is delivered as a vehicle control system today needs the technical expertise and knowledge of people like myself to be shared.I hope we can use this forum to discuss the technical matters of the Puma engine control system to help the many faithful of the Defender world. I can bore you all day with the list of my credentials,but as time progress and the questions are asked you will learn who i am.I would say this:I was running and testing Puma before the public even knew it existed. Little trivia:"which came first-2.0L.2.2L,2.4L or the 3.2L Regards DieselYoda |
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10th Dec 2014 10:55am |
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| rover Member Since: 26 May 2012 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 146
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DieselYoda,
Thanks for your post, it is nice to know that there is someone out there that recognises the problem and says there may be a solution to it. My 2.2 defender drives terribly at low revs low gears and land Rover do not seem to think it is a problem. With regard to a remap, i do not need extra power at 2500 revs i just need the power to pull my 110 smoothly at low speed, after all off road vehicles should be able to do that. I await your future posts on the matter and hopefully a solution can be found.  |
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10th Dec 2014 12:27pm |
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| fatman Member Since: 14 Jan 2014 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 126  
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Share the knowlege man!
2 years ago a "map editor" was shared for the the td5 ecu,it was a good - but incomplete - try,that bothered some people.. I don't want to steal some others' people effort-job,all i want to do is to fully maintain my defender by myself. I am trying to gather as much information as i can,especially for tdci diagnostics etc,unfortunatly for example there isn't a entry level pc software and a cable for accessing the ecu. I am waiting for BBS team to upgrade the nanocom to execute all the functions(pilot injector-fuel pump learn etc) ,something's on the line. Sorry for the off topic. Thanks. |
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10th Dec 2014 12:30pm |
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