 | Home > Maintenance & Modifications > 90 sill replacement - any datum points at tub end? |
 
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1850  
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Hi folks,
I’m helping a friend do a bulkhead swap (Sheilder, so a tale in itself). When we took the old one off we had to cut the sills - no problem, we’ll just fit galved ones from YRM. Unfortunately because of the factory approved Land Rover ‘metal sandwich’ technique (steel + alu + steel) the holes to fit the replacement sills by the ‘B’ pillar are rather large. As someone who’s only worked on 110s I don’t have any sort of experience or reference to know what the sill “alignment” should be. I can send pics if it would help, but not till Sunday as the car is 25 miles away in his shed. Because of the Sheilder bulkhead, lots of other ‘datum’ or reference points are lacking, or I can’t be confident of them. It’s “out” in so many places. I did take a good few pics before the strip down, but typically, not of this specific area. So I’m hoping someone could provide some pointers to allow me to locate the new sill with some confidence in its alignment. Hopefully all that makes sense, but if not then please ask and I’ll clarify if I can. Ta! Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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21st Jan 2022 5:24pm |
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| geobloke Member Since: 06 Nov 2012 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 4410 
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Hi Donald. There are 6 or 7 pages of datums and dimensions in the manual but nothing that relates to the rear tub. Loads around the front bulkhead.
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21st Jan 2022 7:02pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1850
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Thanks for that Geobloke - the workshop manual? I have to say I’d never noticed those pages, but will have a good look.
If nothing else being able to compare ‘datum’ with the State of this bulkhead might help convince my mate that it’s a pile of poo, and that fitting it, and modifying other parts as we go along, is just going to store up more problems for the future! In the meantime if anyone has any 90 sill expertise, please chip in! Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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21st Jan 2022 7:12pm |
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| geobloke Member Since: 06 Nov 2012 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 4410
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Chapter 77 of the TD5 manual pages 1-8.
Chapter 76 of the 300tdi manual pages 1-8 |
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21st Jan 2022 7:36pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1850
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Thanks Dinnu,
The tub hasn’t moved, and I have got the new bulkhead to sit more or less exactly where the old one was, such that the measurements from A pillar to B pillar are almost identical to what they were before the old bulkhead was removed. (Which is only really useful if the new bulkhead is manufactured like the original….. but it’s a Sheilder) Also, the bulkhead is currently attached by ratchet straps on the n/s and o/s - pulling in different directions. They’ve been there for nearly two weeks in the hope that when I remove them there might be a little of a permanent ‘set’, preserving the A/B measurements. This is after adding additional chassis to bulkhead washers on one side, and using the footwell to chassis brackets to get as close as possible to the right position. Back to the sills, I understand what you’re saying. We’ve had the doors on and off while making an assessment of the shut lines. We’ll put them back on tomorrow and try and use that to line up the sills. ( In my mind I’m still looking for the ‘showstopper’ error with the bulkhead which will make it unusable - until we find that, we’ll press on). Currently the passenger floor - seatbox to bulkhead - slopes down markedly towards the bulkhead, and I was hoping for datum information on the sill location to help me work out where the ‘error’ is. I’ll take some photos when I’m at the car tomorrow which might help anyone offer other advice. Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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22nd Jan 2022 11:32am |
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| SteveG Member Since: 29 Nov 2011 Location: Norfolk Posts: 662 
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On my 2005 90 from the factory, measured when six months old, the chassis body mounts were half an inch longer on one side than the other. So personally I wouldn’t worry about trying to get it exact until you get to the point where the doors are on - then adjust/shim until you get panel gaps around the doors even. 👍
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22nd Jan 2022 12:27pm |
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| donmacn Member Since: 06 Nov 2017 Location: Nth Scotland Posts: 1850
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Thanks Steve,
Yep - I do understand that they are literally "all over the place", and if I was fitting a genuine bulkhead I'd be less concerned. In fact I've done that twice before with no great concerns. The real problem here, in my opinion, is that I'm trying to fit a 'pattern' bulkhead.... that isn't very close to the pattern! So, if everything else is 'random' or adjustable, then I have no fixed points or datums to measure against/from, or to build around. Worst case scenario, we 'adjust' as we go along, and then find that we're 15, 20,30mm out somewhere which can't be bodged or worked around. That's what I'm trying to find - a fixed point or two I can rely on. At the moment I have... not very much! If I could confidently fit the sill to the tub, at close to/nearly the factory location it would help. Don't suppose you - or anyone else - could post a pic of the sill, particularly showing how the top of the sill lines up vertically with the bottom of the B pillar...? Donald 1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong (The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html ) 2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8 in the past.. RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi 1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box 1993 Discovery 300Tdi not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper... |
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22nd Jan 2022 12:40pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3446  
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I found that even the original, genuine bulkhead (never been involved in an accident, and never serious offroad) is not square. I have the passenger gap, bulkhead to tub even on the passenger side, but the driver side, the gap is about 4mm different top to bottom. And the only welding it had in the past were just under the windscreen hinges... so must not be that. It is just landrover. My bulkhead outriggers are also different by 2mm. Hence the extra washer on one side from the factory.
Leaving the bulkhead under stress, as mentioned with ratchet strays, will not deform it over time. Steel will always return back to its original shape if not stressed beyond its elastic limit. What you would need to do is pull it a little further, release and check. If not yet good, pull it a little even further, release and re check, until you get it to where you want it to be. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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22nd Jan 2022 1:14pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3446
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If you did not remove the seat box, is it not just a matter of lifting the sill against the seat box? Or I am missing something? 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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22nd Jan 2022 1:16pm |
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| I Like Old Skool Member Since: 23 Feb 2015 Location: Manchester Posts: 820 
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When I rebuilt my 110 on a new chassis (Marsland) I sat the rear tub in place and loosely bolted the tub and bulkhead in position. I then held long (straight) wooden planks along the top of the tub barrel profile and lined this up with the top of the barrel curve on the bulkhead. This ensured the tub was pointing at the right point left to right and up/down. Once these were nudged into the right position I used a tape measure to make sure the door openings were parallel and equal on NS & DS with clearance for the door to fit (I measured the doors then from memory added about 8mm?). It was really easy and once happy bolted it all down and checked with planks and tape again before moving on to fit the wings, sills etc.
I never referred to any dimensions or drawings, didn't find it necessary. All the body positions were worked from the rear crossmember as that is the only real place where the chassis has to line up with the body visually. Don't over think it  |
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22nd Jan 2022 4:17pm |
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