 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Will all pre-fix engines develop a knock eventually? |
 
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971   
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Still trying to find a decent second hand 110, and I'm wondering if all the engines built before the PCJ engine knock fix was installed will eventually succumb to the problem?
If I find an otherwise decent 2008 model with, say 70k miles that's in the affected VIN range, hasn't had the engine changed but isn't currently knocking, is it worth avoiding because of the issue? I don't want to end up spending a large amount of money on something that's soon going to need another large chunk spending on an engine. I've search the forum for variants of TDCi, Puma, jet, knock and PCJ and found lots of information about the issue but nothing to say if it will affect every engine. This is the one I'm referring to:
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18th May 2014 12:35pm |
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| munch90 Member Since: 26 Oct 2013 Location: guildford Posts: 3558 
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personally ive never heard or seen this problem with any defender or transit
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18th May 2014 2:41pm |
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| spudfan Member Since: 10 Sep 2007 Location: Co Donegal Posts: 4667 
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I had an engine change owing to this problem on a 2008 Puma, you'll find the posts regarding it on the site.
It seems that not all vehicles within the effected range will develope the problem. Mine started with a knocking on start up but got gradually worse. It was also using oil and had a relatively high smoke test reading of .750. Check the MOT results on the vehicle you are looking at. If the smoke results are in the .13 region or thereabouts it should be O.K. If you can, dip it for oil. It should be level with the top mark as when a Puma is serviced with 7 litres of oil it comes to the top mark on the dipstick. If it is down it is either using oil or has not been serviced in the recent past. It has been mentioned on this site by owners that their Pumas use no oil between services. Mine was using oil which told me that I had a problem. P.M me if you need additional info on my problem. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel 1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali 2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu 2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai |
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18th May 2014 4:46pm |
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971
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I thought they were all fixed by 2009?
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18th May 2014 6:28pm |
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| spudfan Member Since: 10 Sep 2007 Location: Co Donegal Posts: 4667
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I had to prove that any oil change not carried out by the maindealer had been done using the correct specification oil. I had receipts for the oil and was able to prove that it was suitable for the Puma. The idea of changing to a 0W-30 or a 0W-40 in theory might help matters,but it is not what Land Rover dictate for the engine. In theory you could well use the 0W-30. There is a rule of thumb regarding oils. Namely you can use oil with a LOWER lefthand figure, i.e. the 0W instead of the 5W but DO NOT interfere with the righthand figure i.e. the 30. Once you vary from the handbook and specs. set by the manufacturer it is easy for a manufacturer to walk away saying that you had a hand in causing the engine to develope a fault as it was not maintained as it should have been. I was lucky as I had everthing in order.
Though obvious that some batches of the engine have a fault built into them, that may only manifest itself in the long term Land Rover say that not all the engines in this batch will develope the fault. That is why there was not a recall to change the engine BEFORE the issue arose. The older a vehicle gets and the more starts it does will, in my opinion, bring this issue to the fore in many more vehicles. Like I said earlier, warning signs to watch out for are a) oil consumption b) higher than normal smoke test readings. c) knocking on start up and idle which gets worse over time. Points (a) and (b) might start to show up before (c) begins to worry you. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel 1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali 2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu 2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai |
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18th May 2014 6:34pm |
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| MD5 Member Since: 02 May 2011 Location: Italy Posts: 143 
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@Spudfan: When your engine start to develop the problem, did you feel a change in the smell of the exhaust due to the burnt oil ?
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18th May 2014 6:49pm |
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| spudfan Member Since: 10 Sep 2007 Location: Co Donegal Posts: 4667
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When it got bad there was a lot of blue smoke on start up, on accelerating and overtaking.Did'nt get a smell inside the vehicle but close to the exhaust it would smell. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali 2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu 2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai |
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18th May 2014 6:54pm |
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| MD5 Member Since: 02 May 2011 Location: Italy Posts: 143
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Thanks for the information.
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18th May 2014 7:02pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17391 
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The problem is caused by excessive oil pressure "locking out" the PCJs so that they don't squirt. It is hard to see any reason why it is more likely to happen on an old engine than a new provided that oil changes are done properly since oil pressure tends to drop with age rather than increase. It may of course be that it is more likely to be terminal on an old engine since any damage will be cumulative.
I think that the reason that LR states that all were done by 2009 is simply because that was when the warranty expired on the last vehicle with the old type of PCJ. It certainly does not mean that the problem no longer occurs. As far as the OP's question is concerned I don't for a moment think it is inevitable, and a sweet running '07 which has had oil changes done on time with quality oil should be fine. |
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18th May 2014 9:52pm |
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971
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Ah, OK.
I think I may have misunderstood the problem then. I was under the impression that if you had an affected engine then every time there was high oil pressure (like at startup) you got no flow, and hence every cold start it would make the problem a little worse. The more recent engines having been modified to fix this. What you're saying is that the jets only lock out under relatively unusual circumstances which only occur if other things like oil changes aren't kept on top of? |
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18th May 2014 10:29pm |
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| Mack Member Since: 11 Jan 2014 Location: Central America Posts: 58 
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 Last edited by Mack on 19th May 2014 2:56am. Edited 1 time in total |
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19th May 2014 2:21am |
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| Mack Member Since: 11 Jan 2014 Location: Central America Posts: 58
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Just checked my vin is 758871. Understood to be one of the possible failure group. I have never missed and oil change every 5k km Castrol Magnatec 5w30. Should I be worried? Is is possible to do something to avoid the damage? It has now over 150 k km and no problems at all.
Cheers Mack |
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19th May 2014 2:54am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17391
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My understanding is that it is only conditions of exceptional high oil pressure that cause the jets to lock out, ie under normal starting conditions with clean oil they work as designed. If you have thick dirty oil or if you are running with the wrong oil it is therefore more likely to happen. Temperature is also probably a factor - this must be more likely to occur in very cold weather or climates.
I cannot believe that on all engines there is no flow on startup, since in this case all engines would be doomed and most would have failed by now. I can't see how LR/Ford would have got into that situation, and certainly can't see how they could have avoided a general recall. I suppose that another possiblility is that only certain batches of PCJs exhibited this property so only some engines in the range were affected, and LR is presuming that by now all these will have failed and been replaced. I certainly don't see why anyone would design a PCJ that shut down under conditions of high oil pressure - it is completely insane - so I imagine that the problem must be a flow restrictor with unexpected characteristics. Bearing in mind the failure mechanism (bore/piston scuffing and wear, leading to piston slap, blow-by and presumably ultimately metal fragments in the lubrication system causing almost total destruction of braing surfaces) I am pretty sure that by the time you hear knocking it is all over as far as you engine is concerned. Do Transits use the same PCJs, and do they have the same problem? Anyone know? |
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19th May 2014 8:20am |
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| munch90 Member Since: 26 Oct 2013 Location: guildford Posts: 3558
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like I said in earlier post , I have never seen a transit engine suffered with this or heard anyone say about it
yes we have changed lots of transit engines , but they all been high mileage ones , most of them been boiled up cracked pistons ,run with dodgy injectors or broken timing chain or not just not looked after we used to service a lot of transit courier vans and working transits , all got 10/40 semi but were done regularly now the tdci get 5/30 fully company owned vans were always the worst ones , owner drivers would look after there vans better there are issues now with 2.2 tdci oil pumps failing , had quite a few of them go back to fords with not that many miles on them standard thing applies , don't rev the n@ts out of it or drive it hard till its got a bit of temprature in it to be honest I think the 2.2 is going to give more problems than the 2.4 did |
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19th May 2014 8:47am |
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