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Home > Maintenance & Modifications > Fitting a, X Defend -Column ignition barrel shield to a Puma

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Thud

Member Since: 21 Jul 2012
Location: London
Posts: 667

2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Zermatt Silver

That's very comprehensive. Thank you. Going to get one in the new year.

16th Dec 2012 7:58pm

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

I meant to say in the post that you shouldn't poke about the coil or touch the copper windings with the ignition in the on position, unless you want to taze yourself (50,000 volts) that is?

16th Dec 2012 7:58pm

SimonR

Member Since: 28 Jun 2012
Location: Horsham, West Sussex
Posts: 74

Thanks for posting the instructions. I've had many questions about fitting them to Pumas and you have answered all of them!

I don't think you are going to see 50kV in the coil though - much closer to 12v I suspect!

I originally intended to fit the coil there, but on my Td5, just couldn't get it to fit nicely. That it fits there on a Puma is more ideal.

The blue bit is only really intended to cover up any 'bodgery' in enlarging the hole in the cowl. It doesn't need to be done up tight. Loosening it a little should help the two halves meet up better.

Thanks again,

Si

16th Dec 2012 8:31pm

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

Yes, the input voltage will only be about 12v but with the induction coil this voltage is multiplied by the cycles around the copper coil windings ( think of the old coil in a petrol engine, 12volts in but enough out to light a spark plug). Then again you can always put a multimeter on the coil (the copper windings and not the input plug) with the ignition on, then when you need to buy a new meter, you can trust me when I say you won't be making that mistake again.

Don't ask me how I found this out.

16th Dec 2012 9:07pm

kmac

Member Since: 07 Oct 2009
Location: Middlesex
Posts: 1309

2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Santorini Black

Lorryman100 wrote:

Don't ask me how I found this out.

Your multimeter not fused then?

17th Dec 2012 9:51am

appaloosadude

Member Since: 17 Oct 2012
Location: Buckinghamshire
Posts: 630

Lorryman100 wrote:

Don't ask me how I found this out.

Found out, sat in a puddle of wee, with hair on fire and fingers smouldering.

17th Dec 2012 10:03am

Tiger

Member Since: 06 Jul 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 2265

Just a side point, but I thought the coil was just there to 'agitate the fob' in to sending a radio signal that told the alarm to disable the immobiliser and once the fob has sent the signal to the alarm and the ignition is on then the immobiliser wont re-engage until 30 seconds after the ignition has been switched of. It's continued proximity the steering column is irrelevant?

Way to test this:

Test 1:
Open the car with the fob, don't have it on the keyring and don't put it anywhere near the steering column, start the car within 30 seconds of opening
Expected Result 1:
Car should start

Test 2:
Open the car with the fob, don't have it on the keyring and don't put it anywhere near the steering column, wait for more than 30 seconds then try to start car
Expected Result 2:
Car wont start

Test 3:
Open the car with the fob, don't have it on the keyring and don't put it anywhere near the steering column, wait for more than 30 seconds then try to start car, car shouldn't start, then keeping the plip away from the steering column plip the unlock
Expected Result 3:
Car should start

17th Dec 2012 10:22am

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

The pulsed feed from the 10AS module causes the magnetic field created by the transceiver coil to collapse and restore. The fluctuating magnetic field activates the fob (remote RF handset) to transmit a mobilization code to the 10AS module. The 10AS module receives the fob mobilization code via its antenna. This fob code is compared to a value in the 10AS memory. If the codes match, the 10AS module provides a mobilization signal to the instrument cluster. The instrument cluster acts as a gateway, converting the signal transmitted from the 10AS module into a signal that is recognizable by the ECM. The passive immobiliser works by switching on the immobiliser after a set time once the key/fob is removed. It detects this by using the transceiver coil on the ignition barrel to detect the key/fob. If there is no fob to generate the signal for the 10AS to pick up then it will act as if the key/fob is removed by initiating the immobiliser after 5 mins which will stop the engine by inhibiting the starter and fuel injector circuits via the EMS. There is a way around the passive immobilizer in the EKA code. Entering the EKA code disables the passive immobilizer for one ignition cycle. There have been a few members on here with passive immobilizer issues due to problems with one or more parts of the 10AS system, off the top of my head, Merlin's issue comes to mind?

Click image to enlarge

This is the settings page for the 10AS and shows the info on the fobs. This is a blank one as I am not prepared in showing the settings of my Puma on a open forum.

Click image to enlarge

@kmac, I think it blew it and arced across the gap causing the DMM to give up the ghost. Good news for me though, as it meant I could get the new fluke one that I really wanted in the first place.

Brian.

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated

17th Dec 2012 3:47pm

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

appaloosadude wrote:
Lorryman100 wrote:

Don't ask me how I found this out.

Found out, sat in a puddle of wee, with hair on fire and fingers smouldering.

17th Dec 2012 3:48pm

SimonR

Member Since: 28 Jun 2012
Location: Horsham, West Sussex
Posts: 74

Lorryman100 wrote:
as it meant I could get the new fluke one that I really wanted in the first place.

You will be pleased to know that it doesn't cause either a Fluke 79 nor a Fluke ScopeMeter to let the smoke out!

Si

17th Dec 2012 4:35pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17452

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

I have heard apocryphal tales of the coil/fob arrangement working with the fob left in the centre cubby, and even in a briefcase on the back seat (these tales were from a Landrover tech at a major and reputable dealer). So under favourable conditions at least I doubt range is an issue.

I am surprised that removal of the fob from range (or presumably the death of the fob battery?) could actually cause a running engine to stop, which it will do if my reading of the above posts is correct. I thought it was illegal for any anti-theft system to bring a car to an unexpected standstill for reasons of "safety", this being the reason that the Mechlok hydraulic lock is only approved for use on clutch lines not brake lines.

If this is the case then it is tough luck for a lot of people if you happen to be on a level crossing when the immobiliser shuts your engine off!

It was my understanding that once the start-up dialogue between the key/fob system and the immob system had successfully been carried out, the immob stayed off (ie engine running) as long as the ignition switch stayed in the engine running position, so even if you were to remove the fob completely from the vehicle once the engine was running it would stay running. You wouldn't be able to restart however once it was switched off.

18th Dec 2012 9:48am

SimonR

Member Since: 28 Jun 2012
Location: Horsham, West Sussex
Posts: 74

I've found that if the fob has a new battery, the coil will detect the fob over a range of about 1m. When the battery is getting flat, this reduces eventually to the point where it does not work at all!

Si

18th Dec 2012 10:08am

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

I have one of these and they are worth every penny as it allows you to check that the coil and the fob are transmitting. It also highlights any intermittent issues with the immobilizer as well and it fits nicely on the shelf under the ignition.

http://www.hickleys.com/diagnostics/ad30.php

The way the 10AS passive immobilizer works is not a secret as it has been around since the mid 90's. A google search will, I'm sure tell you absolutely everything you need to know or list any details that you may want to check as does the workshop manual. You can also use your own diagnostic gear to investigate how the system works and see what is enabled in the settings menus, this is by far the best way to understand how the system works and how it is integrated into the IPAC and EMS, as you can do some trial and error testing to see the different results/options available.

18th Dec 2012 6:32pm

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

@ blackwolf http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic8577.html

Merlin wrote:

Good news, the Defender has been repaired! Seems that the Lucas AS10 immobiliser was at fault, as several of the terminals were corroded as the result of water damage. These have been cleaned and the fault has gone. It appears that the AS10 ‘pings’ the key fob and it wasn’t getting these signals back and hence was shutting down the engine, via the EMS. I imagine that the water has been creeping in from somewhere around the windscreen as I have had a pool in the foot well since new. The stealership has limited this flow but it’s still there.

I’d like to especially thank Lorryman100 for all the help he has given. He said that he thought it was an electrical problem from the start and that the AS10 was probably to blame. And it was!

The garage in Llandovery, New Road Garage, were great although they had to go through a learning curve on the Puma engine. I would recommend them for repairs if you are in the area. They changed several bits that needed attention and hence I’m expecting a better performance now.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Merlin

18th Dec 2012 6:51pm

K9F

Member Since: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 9610

2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey

Hunk of metal arrived in post this morning (that'll be my MPG reduced yet again

)....All I need now is some fair weather and a spare bit of time to fit.....

If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!

Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!!

21st Dec 2012 12:01pm

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