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| Killer90 Site Sponsor Member Since: 09 Oct 2011 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 6478   
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  CSK Automotive
www.cskautomotive.co.uk Like us on Facebook - www.facebook.com/csklr Follow us on Instagram - @cskautomotive |
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12th Nov 2012 7:12pm |
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| dgardel Member Since: 30 Nov 2008 Location: Veneto (Heart & Head) Posts: 3586 
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I'm
(Narciso - Caravaggio) Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition
IID Pro MV License |
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12th Nov 2012 7:28pm |
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| K9F Member Since: 12 Nov 2009 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 9610 
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Posted on wrong thread!......But did lift some information from it!
 If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!
Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!! |
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13th Nov 2013 9:24am |
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| dgardel Member Since: 30 Nov 2008 Location: Veneto (Heart & Head) Posts: 3586
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? Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition
IID Pro MV License |
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13th Nov 2013 9:58am |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20371
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What are you on about Mal? Time for some more medication for you I think.  $W33T $0U7H3RN $UG4R
🇬🇧ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó ´ó ¿ðŸ‡®ðŸ‡ªðŸ‡ºðŸ‡¸â›½ï¸ðŸ›¢ï¸âš™ï¸ðŸ§°ðŸ’ª |
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13th Nov 2013 4:51pm |
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| defender4 Member Since: 22 Jun 2011 Location: South East London Posts: 411 
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Whoops!
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13th Nov 2013 5:14pm |
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| diesel_jim Member Since: 13 Oct 2008 Location: hiding Posts: 6092 
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Ahhh... it was just Mal's ressurection of this thread... more or less to the day a year old!
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13th Nov 2013 6:52pm |
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| SteveG Member Since: 29 Nov 2011 Location: Norfolk Posts: 660 
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So after deliberating for a year, who is the best BAS or Alive??
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13th Nov 2013 7:24pm |
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| Eduardo Member Since: 28 Aug 2008 Location: Región Metropolitana Posts: 2110  
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 Eduardo
MY 2007 110 SW PUMA 2.4: Big Fog of 64' MY 1994 Jayco 1207 Folding camper: "El Tremendo" Click image to enlarge |
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13th Nov 2013 10:12pm |
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| BigWheels Member Since: 21 Mar 2010 Location: Somerset Posts: 1405 
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I don't want extra speed, but do torque.
Is a map still best or would a plug-in gadget such as Terrafirma sell be as good, if not cheaper. To those who have mapping, what difference has it made to your insurance premiums & what insurance companies are best for that kind of modification. Land Rover Defenders. 67 years heritage, minimal appearance changes, still going strong all over the world. Not a fashion vehicle, but fashionable to own. Made for the needy, not the greedy. Ta ta Defender |
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13th Nov 2013 10:40pm |
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| Porny Site Sponsor Member Since: 31 Aug 2009 Location: Sutton Coldfield - West Midlands Posts: 809 
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From something I posted a while ago...
A new calibration on the ECU is the only correct way to do it. The one major fact that everyone misses is that modern engine control is based on a torque stragety - and as such max torque will always be capped by the ECU. In simple terms: There is a base line fuel PW map, but fuelling is actually based around a torque demand map. Where by the ECU knows exactly what fuel, boost, injection timing, fuel rail pressure is needed to give the torque/power demanded by the driver (within the capability of the engine/standard calibration) - taking into account altitude, air intake temps etc etc. There is a lot more to it than this – but this is the short version. Gone are the days where to get more power from a diesel you simply increase PW (fuel) to get more fuel to get more power... and the resultant clouds of smoke. A plug in box is a dumb device that doesn't look at what the vehicle is doing, what altitude, temperature etc etc - but simply adds additional fuel to give the sensation of power. Typically this is done in three ways - increasing PW (which has problems), confusing the fuel rail sensor (making the ECU think it's lower than it actually is) or by changing the response of the coolant temperature sensor (as you get more fuel at lower temps)... or the tuning box will do a combination of the above. Why's this so bad.... Well, increasing pulse width is very dangerous - it puts fuel in too late (as it adds additional fuel at the end of what the ECU is demanding) which will lead to un-burnt fuel and bore wash. It drives the injector drive too hard (which can damage the ECU) and a few other factors. (People remapping modern diesels that don’t know what they are doing also adjust PW wrongly!). Playing with Fuel Rail pressure can kill fuel the pump (high pressure), can lead to a damaged fuel rail and takes components outside of their working range (and we are talking of high pressure – over 1200bar) Frigging the coolant sensor leads to over fuelling and thus bore was as above. All of the above are bad - and will be detrimental to the engine and engine life (especially with regards to bore wash – where the excess diesel injected at the wrong time washes the cylinder wall – removing all of the lubricating oil). But my biggest concern is as mentioned above - it's a dumb box. A modern engine has numerous conditions where the ECU will force de-rate (i.e limp home) to save damage to the engines and conditions. This could be over or under boost faults (I.e. a spit hose), overheating, injector faults etc. The problem is that the plug in box will not see any of these conditions – and will keep adding fuel. So the engine is trying to de-rate – and the box is going Power, Power – we need more power. Result – one dead engine. There are also safety considerations…. Have you ever tried left foot breaking a modern car? Or left foot braking an Auto to launch it off the mark? The ECU calibration will typically allow you to do this for 30 seconds –and then will de-rate the engine. Why – because it thinks there is something wrong. It thinks that there is a fault and the engine is running away (i.e. not being controlled by the throttle – so for example the throttle is stuck on). With a plug in box, again, if the engine starts to de-rate, the box its thinking – more, we need more – and still adds additional fuel – so will not allow the engine to go to its base fuelling level. This could be very dangerous in certain conditions – going downhill fully loaded for example. In my opinion, back in the day you could get away with a plug in box – but diesel technology has advanced so quickly they are miles behind!! And if you think they are bad now – lets consider the new 2.2 (or any modern diesel with a DPF). When doing a ReGen you use the post fuelling to control the burn (modern diesels don’t inject fuel once per stroke as per antiquated diesels)… So you have something that is operating at 800 degrees C in the engine bar – and it is being precisely controlled by the engine ECU. But the plug in box doesn’t know this… And again – it will ramp the PW up further – suddenly you have a DPF that is not being controlled by the engine ECU and is getting very hot! This will lead to a thermal event. I would love to see the plug in box companies taking responsibility for this!! And LR isn’t stupid – plug in boxes will leave traces – these will not be picked up by a dealer – but for example if a new engine is needed under warranty, LR themselves will investigate further. One thing I don’t understand is that people are happy to spend £20,000 plus on a vehicle and then think they are getting a bargain when they see a tuning box for £100 (or in fact a remap for £150). As a side note - I would take actual figures from plug in boxes with a pinch of salt. As per the opening paragraph, if we consider that a calibration is torque based - it also means the max torque (and power) the engine is able to make is limited by the ECU/Calbration. If the engine ECU calculates that the the engine is making more power than it should do, it will actually start to back off fuelling and boost etc to reduce power. So any gain from a plug in box will be short lived, as the ECU will detect it as a 'fault' and power will be reduced. This means you will get a very 'spikey' power delivery if you actually looked at the trace on a vehicle dyno. This isn't just plug in boxes though - a lot of 'tuners' fall into the same trap. You end up with something along the lines of: Click image to enlarge The red line is someone's attempt at a performance calibration (which is done by boost and PW changes) - for comparison the green line is my entry level calibration. They quote some impressive figures - but that actually only very short lived over a few BHP - before the ECU calibration kicks in and back everything off. With regards to insurance - I have written letters in the past that people have sent to their insurance companies - stating that the main benefit of a calibration change is to improve the torque delivery - for better towing, better driveabilty and usually improved MPG. The intention is not to make your LR a sports car. Ian Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated  IRB
The home of the first modified Keswick Green 90 - and the first 2.4 Puma through both the 200bhp and 550Nm barriers. www.IRBdevelopments.com www.facebook.com/irbdevelopments www.integrated316.com www.facebook.com/integrated316 |
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14th Nov 2013 11:05am |
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| dgardel Member Since: 30 Nov 2008 Location: Veneto (Heart & Head) Posts: 3586
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Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition
IID Pro MV License |
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14th Nov 2013 11:13am |
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| BigWheels Member Since: 21 Mar 2010 Location: Somerset Posts: 1405
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Thanks Porny. I'll ring my insurance for advice on re-maps. I have been given a quote on a "mild" re-map for increasing torque by my Alive licensee of (IIRC) £350 inc VAT for my 2.4 Puma. Land Rover Defenders. 67 years heritage, minimal appearance changes, still going strong all over the world. Not a fashion vehicle, but fashionable to own. Made for the needy, not the greedy. Ta ta Defender
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14th Nov 2013 12:05pm |
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| Porny Site Sponsor Member Since: 31 Aug 2009 Location: Sutton Coldfield - West Midlands Posts: 809
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Do you know what power/torque you will end up with?
Would be interesting to compare rolling road/dyno print outs to see what you actually get for your money... Also, make sure you are getting file updates - and correct setup once the calibration has changed. Ian IRB The home of the first modified Keswick Green 90 - and the first 2.4 Puma through both the 200bhp and 550Nm barriers. www.IRBdevelopments.com www.facebook.com/irbdevelopments www.integrated316.com www.facebook.com/integrated316 |
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14th Nov 2013 12:16pm |
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