 | Home > Maintenance & Modifications > Is a 4 point roll cage any use? |
 
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| ZeDefender Member Since: 15 Sep 2011 Location: Munich Posts: 4731   
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Mmmmhrmmpfh - eating my words  Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing... |
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7th Nov 2012 5:09pm |
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| Pam W Member Since: 25 Oct 2011 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1169  
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When we decided on a cage for my 90 we went with P&P, for a number of reasons - previous experience on another vehicle, ease of customisation of standard expedition cage and locality (they are about 50 mins drive away).
The main problem with both the SD and P&P standard full expedition cages, as we saw it, was the lack of cross bracing. To maintain the load space (for an expedition / family use vehicle) it isn't really practical to go with the MSA spec rear stays from the top of the cage to the chassis in the loadspace so we looked for a more practical solution for stiffening and bracing the cage, particularly for the scenario of a side roll. So as well as the external and internal hoops we also went for a removable cross brace on the internal hoop, a fixed cross brace on the roof and a diagonals on the outside of the hard top sides. Perhaps all a bit overkill for someone who just wants a bit of extra protection on road use and light off-roading, but for us this will give a lot more protection in the event of a roll over in the trip to the Australian outback and also doubles up as a very strong roof rack for our roof tent....  Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Our blog - http://landytravels.com/ Yorkshire Off Road Club - http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net |
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7th Nov 2012 8:59pm |
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| ZeDefender Member Since: 15 Sep 2011 Location: Munich Posts: 4731
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Very nice
Pam - how are the front mounting points (e.g. over the air intake) braced on the inside? The SD schematic for the 4 point makes it look as though there's a cross member in the engine compartment  Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing... |
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7th Nov 2012 9:06pm |
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| davew Member Since: 02 Jan 2012 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 888 
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The P&P expedition cage uses a box section on the inside of the wing that links to a saddle that sits on top of the bulkhead outrigger. The bulkhead mounting bolt goes through the saddle too. The middle feet are linked into the internal hoop and the chassis outrigger. The rear feet are linked to the rear crossmember. I added the side diagonals to the design to provide some longitudinal bracing/triangulation and the internal hoop is linked in at the top of the diagonal.
I believe SD use an angle iron support instead of a box section support which probably makes fitting easier but seems to allow the front of the cage to bend forwards, judging by "after" photos of Defenders with one of their expedition cages. http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/ |
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7th Nov 2012 10:29pm |
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| Pam W Member Since: 25 Oct 2011 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1169
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Landyphil - the OP was not asking about what is the best and strongest design of cage he can get - I'd agree that if he was then the MSA spec cage would be relevant to the discussion. The MSA cage, good as it is, is not relevant here as it would not suit the required application. The SD and P&P Expedition cages both fulfill the application requirements adequately and more besides.
I'm quite aware of MSA specs having been involved organisation of MSA motorsports for over 20 years and have a copy of the Blue Book on my desk! The MSA do not 'recommend' a roll cage in any case. Depending on which event you are doing it is either required or not within the Regulations. Even the MSA do not require or even recommend a roll cage for a Trial (expect under very specific circumstances). I would also disagree that an MSA spec cage would assist in coming to sell a family road going Defender such as the OP has. It would probably depreciate it heavily and put people off due to it confining movement around the cab and interferring with the carrying capacity of the load space. Admittedly my P&P cage will have made my Defender less easy to sell to a general market but then it is a keeper and built for our needs, and not for resale or motorsport.... Our blog - http://landytravels.com/ Yorkshire Off Road Club - http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net |
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10th Nov 2012 8:22pm |
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| Landyphil Member Since: 23 Jul 2012 Location: Lake District Posts: 87  
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Fair doos I just misread the opening question. If I was going to the effort to fit a cage I'd want it to mounted right. No point going to all that effort and then the outriggers crapping themselves in their dire moment of need.
Really? I mean..really?? They never "Recommended" a hoop or cage not even for a trial> Hmmm 
So this years Blue book (the one on your desk) . Turn to the Cross Country section and look at "Trials and Orienteering": Trials and Orienteering 59.1. The following are recommended; 59.1.1. K Appendix 2, drawing 1. K Appendix Drawing 1 is a basic roll hoop is it not? Admittedly not a full cage but then looking further afield: All vehicles with manufacturer’s hard top or truck cab are recommended to adopt Safety Criteria K.1.6.1, K Appendix 2, drawing 1. That'll be that roll hoop they never recommend again. Or if we look at less aggressive trials: 9.7. If using a non-standard car, the fitting of a safety roll-over bar as specified in the safety requirements section of K.1.6.1 is recommended. That'll be a 6 point cage being recommended. Although I've heard the MSA never recommend a cage? Going onto the speedier stuff: Road-Going Series Production and Road-Going Specialist Production, K.1.6.1 or K.1.6.2 recommended. I'm assuming here that all these are typo's. I mean if you've been organising (any building/ competing?) for 20 years which is most of my life to be honest and has that weighty blue tomb from Colnbrook just to hand then clearly the copy I've got must be wrong.
I wasn't suggesting the chap should go for a full MSA certifiable cage per se far from it just consider doing the mounts properly that way someone coming to buy it knows it's been done to a standard that is recognised. Certainly if I was looking for a expedition motor it'd be nice to know the "scaffolding" has been done right. 90XS Tdci John Eales 110 CSW G4 Edition 88" Series 3 Racer |
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11th Nov 2012 5:16pm |
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| Pam W Member Since: 25 Oct 2011 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1169
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Landyphil -
Firstly I am still correct that the MSA do not recommend a CAGE for Trials, as you have also pointed out in your quotes, it is a BAR (not the same thing!). Please note, however, that I did also qualify my comment with 'except in specific circumstances' which pretty much covers everything you have quoted for the other bits. We no longer have a vehicle with an MSA spec cage as it isn't required for the comps we do (Trials and Challenge). The 100" has a P&P cage that was custom designed for our vehicle, to include all the strongest mounting points that you'd get on a MSA cage, but without the rear stays in the load space as these were incompatible with the use we put the vehicle to (OBC 2008). P&P used their vast expertise in building cages for rally and other motorsport to come up with a design that is immensely strong but also doesn't interfere with the use of the vehicle. It doesn't comply to MSA specs only due to not having the rear stays in the tub (they are on the outside edge) but that is irrelevant as it is otherwise probably better! We use the 100" for Trials too so here it massively exceeds both the MSA Regulations and MSA 'recommended' protection. With regard to my expedition cage, this is also a tried and test design by P&P. It is not welded to the chassis but the specific way it is bolted on and because p&P ensure all components are of appropriate strength and quality, then it is more than suitable for the task in hand. Same goes for SD I would assume. Our blog - http://landytravels.com/ Yorkshire Off Road Club - http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net |
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11th Nov 2012 7:44pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Landyphil - I'm with you on this one and think an alternative point of view to Pam's is worthwhile for those not familiar with the ins and outs of roll over protection.
Let someone know all the facts and then make their own informed decision. As to assuming any offering from any manufactuerer is fit for your particular purpose - that can lead to expensive mistakes or even worse... |
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11th Nov 2012 8:12pm |
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| Pam W Member Since: 25 Oct 2011 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1169
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I completely agree that people who have little knowledge should seek expect advice and get properly competent people to carry out the work. Don't see anyone here, myself or anyone else, saying otherwise. Don't forget though that anyone who can cut and weld can build a cage to MSA specs using the specs in the Blue Book. It might not be properly done and would only get checked if the person had it checked by an MSA Scrutineer. Up until that point it could indeed still be a case of "expensive mistakes or worse..." Our blog - http://landytravels.com/ Yorkshire Off Road Club - http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net |
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11th Nov 2012 9:12pm |
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| pjh Member Since: 22 Nov 2010 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 126 
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Phoenix90,
Sorry for the delay in replying. I believe they do, but the vehicle is with Foley's at the moment so I can't check. We have a roof tent and storage box installed so height isn't an issue for us. Well, it is but not for day-to-day use! Kind regards, Peter PS Killer90 is the man to ask! Defender 11MY USW |
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12th Nov 2012 11:08pm |
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