CyberCharlie wrote:

From a legal perspective, am I allowed by the DVLA to cut holes in a car body where there was no hole before? I assume yes, but I prefer asking...

mrandmrsh wrote:

The complexity here comes if it is a van and you have claimed the tax back. Adding side windows behind the driver will mean this needs to be considered. If it is just your motor you'll be fine (as long as you are not adding rear seats etc.) but it is a modification so your insurance will want to know.

HTH
Craig

ben_j85jty wrote:

From memory, the windows have to be of a certain size to get the HMRC excited about you not paying the right amount of tax, and those should be fine.

Quote:

2.4 Can a commercial vehicle be converted into a car?
You can convert a commercial vehicle into a car for VAT purposes. But if you recover VAT on the purchase of the vehicle you must account for output tax when the conversion is completed. The value for VAT purposes is the value of the vehicle at the time the conversion is completed, including the cost of the conversion. You can recover VAT on any parts bought for the conversion.

Examples of some of the ways in which you might convert a commercial vehicle into a car include:

* fitting a side window or windows in a van to the rear of the driver’s seat
* fitting a rear seat or seats to a van - even without side windows and
* removing seats from a twelve-seater vehicle.

mrandmrsh wrote:

Mr Wolf, I don't like to disagree but....

The HMRC document here http://tinyurl.com/25wxml seems to suggest otherwise.

Quote:

2.4 Can a commercial vehicle be converted into a car?
You can convert a commercial vehicle into a car for VAT purposes. But if you recover VAT on the purchase of the vehicle you must account for output tax when the conversion is completed. The value for VAT purposes is the value of the vehicle at the time the conversion is completed, including the cost of the conversion. You can recover VAT on any parts bought for the conversion.

Examples of some of the ways in which you might convert a commercial vehicle into a car include:

* fitting a side window or windows in a van to the rear of the driver’s seat
* fitting a rear seat or seats to a van - even without side windows and
* removing seats from a twelve-seater vehicle.

I really don't think you can legally buy a 90 hard top, put side windows in and still treat it as a van for VAT and Benefit in Kind Purposes.

Once thing is for sure, it is not made simple......

Very interesting indeed, thank you, I stand corrected! However I didn't think that fitting side windows to a van caused it to stop being a van any more, not since the 1992 Car Tax (Abolition) Act. It certainly did before that. So I wonder if this is an anachronism left in the explanatory notes since 1992, or is still the case.

Looking at your link, it seems that HMRC has completely different definitions of "car" and "commercial vehicle" to any road traffic legislation, so you may be driving something that is a van under C&U'86 but HMRC will tell you it's a car. Wonderful!

Consider the statement "A car for VAT purposes is any motor vehicle of a kind normally used on public roads which has three or more wheels and either is constructed or adapted mainly for carrying passengers or has to the rear of driver’s seat roofed accommodation which is fitted with side windows or which is constructed or adapted for the fitting of side windows."

What on earth does "constructed or adapted for the fitting of side windows" actually mean? It is absurd, undefined and undefinable! Who rights this rubbish?

It all goes to show that no matter how careful you are as a vehicle operator there is now inevitably something you're doing wrong. Even the people who enfore the rules are baffled now (look at some of the confusion about speed limits, tachos, etc, and conflicting statements fomr VOSA and DVLA). We are drowning under pointless red tape, none of which serves any useful purpose. Ok, rant over, deep breaths.

However returning to the OP's question, I seem to recall that one of the reasons why the triangular shape was first used for the extra windows in a Hardtop Landrover (well before they were called Defender) was because it actually wasn't behind the driver's seat, but alongside the driver's shoulder and thus OK for the car tax.