 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Bleeding Puma 2.4 Clutch Question |
 
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324  
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Lots of ways, I'll outline the 'traditional' way.
You'll need: - Length bit of clear tube that fits nicely over the bleed outlet - Receiving pan - A (patient) buddy. - Open ended spanner (I forget the size sorry! maybe 13mm?) - Hacksaw/file/anglegrinder - basically some kind of metal removal device Climb underneath vehicle, find the bleed valve which is on the left hand side of the bell housing. Take off dirt cover, put on tube, put other end in a pan. It is part#1 here - but most of that is inside the housing:  Click image to enlarge If you cant find it follow the pipe from the master which is part#3 here: Click image to enlarge (bleed valve is #19 here) Master is situated above the clutch pedal, in the engine bay. Anyhoo, so try to open the valve and fail - note that the valve isn't a hex, it's just two flats instead so you'll have to modify your spanner to work (shorten, grind down etc.) Grab your buddy, give em coffee, put on some tunes etc. Open bonnet, find master reservoir, open and top up the level if it isn't already. Put cap back on (if you don't your buddy will blow liquid into your engine bay which will then drip on your face) Get underneath again and open the valve with your spanner, likely you'll see some dark liquid come out - good. Get buddy to slowly push clutch in. Liquid will flow. Close valve. Get buddy to release clutch pedal. Open valve. Get buddy to slowly push clutch in. Liquid will flow. Close valve. Get buddy to release clutch pedal. Open valve. Get buddy to slowly push clutch in. Liquid will flow. ... Keep doing this until either the reservoir runs low on liquid or you're happy with results. A full purge of the old liquid will need at least a few reservoir top-ups. If it goes too low you'll just get air in there which means start all over again! Happy with results = liquid flowing out of bleed valve is the same colour as the stuff you put in and there are no bubbles in it. You might have trouble getting air past the pipe section that runs behind the ECU, which for some 'design' reason forms a nice air trap - top work LR designers! (either way ... if it's intentional maybe there is a good reason for it?) If that is the case maybe get your buddy to be a bit more forceful with the clutch and do the iterations between reservoir top-ups quicker, or better yet read up on a reverse bleed style approach or suction below 
Once the bleed is closed, any pedal push should feel nice and firm throughout the push. Proof is in the pudding really, take it for a spin. Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... Last edited by agentmulder on 31st Jul 2016 11:18pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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31st Jul 2016 6:27pm |
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| vaucluse Member Since: 04 Feb 2012 Location: SE London Posts: 185 
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Many thanks agentmulder for the terrific write up. Was curious if there was anything special involved. When I had the clutch replaced I remember the dealer having trouble getting it bled properly and now having had the clutch fluid replaced last week two years on, I found no issues driving home yesterday but today I am struggling to shift into first easily most of the time.
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31st Jul 2016 6:54pm |
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324
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OK,
Well first step is check the reservoir, what level is it at? That will rule out a leak. But regardless, sounds like a reverse bleed or suction is the go. I'll outline reverse when I get some time to type. Suction version is just bleed open and suck fluid out with a large syringe. That way you get more fluid momentum, buddy can he topping up reservoir as you go. Bubbles don't have a chance to float back up as they're along for the ride... Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... |
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31st Jul 2016 7:06pm |
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| ian series 1 Member Since: 17 Nov 2014 Location: south Posts: 3127  
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You will find the bleed nipple on a Puma is a simple plastic affair which is opened and closed turning it by hand.
Can be a bit tight, but follow the above and you shouldn't have any problems.  80" 80" 86" 88" 90"
Wanted, Forward Control Anything considered. |
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31st Jul 2016 7:31pm |
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324
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Reverse bleed:
You'll need: - Clear tube that fits bleed outlet as before - longer length though. - Pump style oil can (cheap ones like your dad has in the garage) - Syringe (just a small one - get em at a pharmacy) Run tube from the top of engine near the master cyclinder down to the bleed valve - prime it with fluid, and try to shake out all bubbles - open valve and shake out those new bubbles also (a push on the pedal would help, but watch out for the squirt). Close the valve. Connect the (primed) oil can to the end of the tube - it's not essential but try to avoid bubbles (without bubbles it's much less fuss). Open the valve. Once again, check for bubbles, they're your enemy - let them float up the tube... Next, open the master and leave it open, suck all the fluid out with your syringe. discard it in an eco-friendly manner (or I'll come round and tell you off). Now pump that oil can fast! - you'll see the reservoir fill up and probably hiccup, fart and belch while doing so - that's good, that's your air being purged. Note the number of pumps it took until the reservoir was full. Don't let it spill over for obvious reasons. Suck all the (old) fluid out of the master with your syringe again. Now pump that oil can fast! Repeat steps (multiple required) until all fluid is clean and clear and no more farts. Pump until reservoir is at the right level. Close valve. Take off tube over a pan. Clean up. Done. Some notes: if there are persistent bubbles in the tube from the oil can, just keep pumping until they are close but not into the system, then let them float up again. Hopefully the reservoir will fill up before that point anyway. It's easier than it sounds, you'll figure it out as you go along. Also possible is to have the reservoir drain via a siphon back into your oil can so you form a loop, and therefore save a lot of fluid purging persistent air traps this way - but make sure it's all clean. I personally don't bother doing this. Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... Last edited by agentmulder on 31st Jul 2016 8:33pm. Edited 2 times in total |
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31st Jul 2016 7:33pm |
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324
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My dang hands are either too weak and/or too big to manage this - lucky you! 3D printing a larger grip would be my next step - a knurled ring about 40mm in diameter with the right shape in the middle. Might design one and put it in the defender 3D printed parts repository
I wonder how PLA/ABS stands up to brake fluid?  Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... |
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31st Jul 2016 7:41pm |
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| vaucluse Member Since: 04 Feb 2012 Location: SE London Posts: 185
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Thanks for the replies guys - much appreciated
Mark |
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31st Jul 2016 9:46pm |
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| williamthedog Member Since: 29 Dec 2012 Location: south wales Posts: 3441 
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That's how I've done mine when changing the fluid. Thought it was a bit strange but haven't had any problems with it |
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1st Aug 2016 4:56am |
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971 
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[quote="agentmulder"]
I've made something a bit like that for adjusting a doodad at work. I used to bit of old PCB that I stuck together with epoxy, drilled out a starter hole then filed it out to be the correct shape to grab the flats. Put a hole on one side that's finger sized for extra fast spinning. |
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1st Aug 2016 7:38am |
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| vaucluse Member Since: 04 Feb 2012 Location: SE London Posts: 185
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Gents,
Just a follow on question if I may? Having had the fluid bled I am finding some resistance to getting into first gear. It's been re-bled by the garage without improvement. I had the same issue four years ago when the clutch was replaced and was eventually solved by the dealer after having the vehicle 28 days!! and no I wont be going back there again. My question is this, are some brake/clutch fluids less compressible than others? I've had the latest Shell Dot 4 ESL fluid used which I believe is the correct spec for the Puma TDCi but feel I could do with just a little more 'depression' or compression if you know what I mean to be able to freely engage first. Anyone had similar issues? |
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1st Aug 2016 2:33pm |
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| ian series 1 Member Since: 17 Nov 2014 Location: south Posts: 3127
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Have you tried adjusting the pedal height/ travel?
This is usually the problem after installing a new clutch. Do a quick search on "Pedal height/master cylinder adjustment" 80" 80" 86" 88" 90"
Wanted, Forward Control Anything considered. |
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1st Aug 2016 5:58pm |
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324
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My memory is coming back.
I think the spanner modification wasn't for the bleed valve, but for the pedal height adjustment job! Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... |
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1st Aug 2016 6:48pm |
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324
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But to answer your question, technically yes, every fluid will have different compressibility. But for your intents and purposes, no they won't.
Excluding the clutch itself, air is the first problem, then the pedal throw/rod being out of optimal adjustment with the master piston. Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... |
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1st Aug 2016 8:10pm |
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| MK Member Since: 28 Aug 2008 Location: Santiago Posts: 2420  
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Just prior to lift the gearbox, fill up the bearing with fluid and pushing and releasing it. In this way the lower section of the circuit is free of air. When bolting the box into the engine a bit of fluid will come out as the bearing gets pushed by the presure plate fingers. As for the upper section try to fill as much as possible. And then plug whatever part of it into the plastic valves and fittings that come out of the bellhousing. Turned to be quicker than filling the whole empty circuit. Puma 110" SW
............................................................. Earth first. Other planets later |
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25th Sep 2018 8:07pm |
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