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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436   
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A little electric ranting over the next posts....
ELECTRICAL 1. DUAL BATTERY SETUP 
If I would need a system I would look into marine systems as these are made to keep people alive. The 4x4 systems are besides a nice (but useless) led bar nothing more than a relay and do not use the right signals for switching. -Coupling batteries based on battery voltage state is simply wrong. The deciding factor is if charge is applied or not. -The LED bars are useless as they indicate voltage, not state of charge, therefore you’ll need a real battery tester to measure voltage under load. - These systems are constructed for lead-acid conventional batteries and cause problems with AGM/gell and deepcycle batteries as these have higher voltages. To explain: A full starter battery will trigger the coupling of both batteries, independent from the state of the alternator. This results in 2 half charged batteries in worst case. (long storage periods eg) As a deep cycle battery quickly recovers its voltage (but not its charge!) these systems will couple even if the battery is only half full. What we need is (and the marine systems do this) isolation of both batteries as long as charging is not applied. So I want to couple only when there is alternator output. I do not care about priority charging. A battery takes 10% of its rating as max charge current. So with 2x 100ah batteries I need a charge current from the alternator of 20A. Which is absolutely no problem for the standard alternator to deliver. If if would apply priority charging, it would only take double time to have both batteries charged. With this I also want to kill the whole bigger alternator hype. A bigger alternator is only helping during consumption. It will make your batteries last longer while the engine is running. Eg during winch operation. BUT it will not help charging your batteries faster. Another consideration is servicing of the installed system. Will you be able to diagnose and repair a faulty split-charge system in the field? So KISS applies again. While basic it is sometimes mixed up or forgotten and the split-charge systems conveniently forget to mention about it; there is a big difference between charging and discharging circuits. It is clear when the batteries are coupled using 400+A winch over a 80A relay is a bad idea. So these systems are coupling for charging, not for discharging. Setup: Coupling of the batteries is based on the existence of output voltage from the alternator. This presence will trigger a relay and couple the batteries. In addition to this I split this signal cable so I can attach a charger, which will supply the trigger signal in case the engine is not running and the charger is plugged in. A 3 position switch: Automatic: signal is supplied by alternator/charger Off: coupling is prohibited Manual: coupling is active by manually closing the relay
I wired in an inexpensive battery monitor which switches off at 11.5V. This module only has a switching rate of 10A so it is used to disable the aux switches feed. This also means that the batteries are disconnected if the AUX battery falls below 11.5V or is not present. (or when switch is in manual position it will prevent both batteries being discharged lower than 11.5) Simply said, the monitor will override the switch settings to avoid draining the batteries. This has the benefit over a VSR based system that the voltage drop of the monitoring system is only routed to the switches, not to the batteries. So batteries get full alternator voltage, not 0.6v less for the aux battery. Or differently; the switch is deciding how the charging happens and the monitor is there to prevent deep cycling. For discharging from both batteries at the same time, eg jump starting or winching S2 in the drawing can be an Albright high current relay, BUT I would strongly recommend to still have a manual switch in the system. You really want to be able to separate/couple the batteries in case something goes wrong with the setup. Once I will install my winch I will place a second relais in line with the override switch. This relais will disable the charging relais and gets it signal from the winch ON/OFF switch. This way I automatically uncouple the batteries. The manual S2 can then still connect both batteries for maximum capacity BUT the relais will not burn-out as with the ‘override’ functions on the commercial split charge systems. AND the coupling is a manual on-purpose action. From both batteries will go Anderson connectors for jump starting or other high current connections. Puma OEM charging system. Important to know is that Ford introduced a higher alternator voltage to work with newer battery types.(varta-bosh calcium) The Bad side is that classic (cheaper) lead-acid batteries get a charging voltage which is too high and this leads to premature failures. (google ford battery mondeo and you will find all info related) The good side is that you do not need to add a DC/DC charging system to get agm/deep cycle and new batteries fully charged. Batteries Lots of opinions and lots of possibilities. Here’s mine ☺ The key for a starter battery is CA The key for a aux battery is Ah Specialty Dry cell Deep cycle batteries as Optima and exide will not solve this and per Ah are 4x the cost. (I do see their advantages in certain applications but not in an overland vehicle) Bosh and Varta are identical products with a different label. Varta being most of the time a bit cheaper than bosh. The standard LR battery is a Bosh S5 /Varte Silverline 90ah. Both come with 3 year warranty. Both suppliers have also deep cycle versions which are about 10% more expensive AND which are compatible to be used in a dual battery setup with their starter-versions. A second Bosh S5 100Ah will serve as my aux-battery as the original S5 is still ok. For the time being I’ll install a spare yellow top optima once I figured out the battery tray. TBC :) Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated  |
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11th Mar 2012 10:54pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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2. TC/ABS OVERRIDE SWITCH
Click image to enlarge The TC system overheating in heavy conditions with “””possible””” brake failure is mentioned more than once in different topics. This with the weak front diff reports and the questionable benefits of TC and full lockers gives you all reasons to put in an override switch. Legal side of things, I had a chat with a friend lawyer, and as in most cases he looks at it from a different angle. You cannot break law, nor can your insurance company or a car manufacturer. This means you cannot make alterations that are illegal. Putting an override switch on a safety feature of a car is not illegal but you have to do it according law. In this case this means that: - A warning light needs to be present indicating and warning the user that the safety system is disarmed. (as on each and every other car with an OEM override switch installed) - Switch and indicators need to have identification so no confusion can exist about their functionality. -Information must be available to the user indicating the dangers and functionality of the switch and warning light. OK, so do we comply in this case? - Override the system with the switch lights up the ABS/TC control light on the dash. Check! - Switch is marked TC/ABS Check! - LR Manual clearly states what a combined brake/ABS dash light means and the possible consequences of it. Check! I choose to not put the TC switch in my switch cluster but use the steering column for it. Avoids switching on/off by accident and gets rid of the novice questions about the functionality of the hole in the column mold. ☺ Remark: For those with air-lockers that want to disable the TC, put a NC relay instead of a switch and power it from the solenoid valve of your locker. If you engage your locker it automatically disengages the TC. Put it on the back locker. Exploding front diff problem solved. TBC :) Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated |
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11th Mar 2012 10:56pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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3. AUX Wiring
Having done a couple of cars in the mean time I got to my own opinion and rules of what works best to me. 1. No centralized power distribution to all users. Too many electrics in one place (fault-finding) and too many power cables running through the car. (risk) 2. Power-Grid distribution approach. Main power lines go to Front-mid-back of car and power from there individual users over relays. This way I have only 3 main power cables to route, I can switch off any of the 3 individually by removing their individual fuses. And in case of a failure of one of the appliances I don’t loose all aux only 1/3rd and know immediately where to go look for the problem. 3. Switches using 7 or 13 trailer connection wire as a bus system running from front to back of car so multiple switches can be installed 4. Absolute separation between original Car and AUX circuits. 5. No direct power through switches, all users go over relays and switch feed current can be used to disable relays functionality. Appliances with own on/off (CB, Inverter, etc) routed directly over fuse. (made an exception for LED lights as they draw almost nothing)
FRONT BOX -USB and AUX sockets - CB and communications - worklight front Signal - AUX spots front Signal - Webasto Signal - Front LED lights
MID BOX - Waterpump - Compressor - Inverter - Wifi -AUX DC-OUT Click image to enlarge REAR - Fridge - AUX DC-OUT - AUX DC Roof - Worklight back - Interior lights LED
Switches CUBY box: SW1: Compressor: ON/OFF SW2: Webasto: ON/OFF (main power, thermo signals over thermostat-module) SW3: Charging ON: Manual: connect batteries OFF: no connection ON: AUTO: connection of batteries when starter battery/ALT/Charger has 12+ volt Switch is guarded by battery monitor and disconnects batteries if AUX battery drops below 11.5V independent from switch position. This also disables the switch feed on SW 1-2-6-7 so no aux equipment can be used till battery is charged again. (no deep cycling) Fridge and Inverter have build in protection so can be permanently connected. SW4: Aux High Beam ON: Manual on OFF: off ON: switched over normal High Beam SW5: Work light Back ON: Manual on OFF: off ON: Switched over Reverse Light SW6: AUX DC roof External connetion at back for eg roofrack lights or RTT interior lights/heater. SW7: AUX DC Cargo Area: Yellow 1: LED interior lights Yellow 2: Work light back Blue: waterpump Red: AUX DC Green 1: AUX DC roof Green 2: Sidelights/ aux DC
TBC :) Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated |
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11th Mar 2012 11:02pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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WABO 222 series anyone?
These work great and are a big time saver. Not the cheapest but good.Vibration resistant, 1 size up to 4mm2,
Main power distribution to the boxes: 25mm2 main line to passenger side, all in tubing and using waterproof fittings
and one for Pouf (this is not on demand, that's how they always sleep) 
TBC :) Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated |
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11th Mar 2012 11:09pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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Power plugs
What to use as power plugs? Million types exists but which ones are best? The stock cigarette lighter plug looks universal but is neither stable nor able to handle decent power. The older style 12VDC plugs are a bit better but the connectors disintegrate quite quickly. My solution, and I have these running for some time in high-amp applications are the Neutrik Speakon range. Build as a tank intended to connect high amp PA systems all day long they last and are rated for a 30A music signal. They come with 2 pairs of pins, which in case of high-amp I pair with a 4x2.5mm2 or 4x 4mm2 cable. They latch in place but are not awkward to remove. The only minus I found with them is that the new range has spade connectors on the chassis part (previous versions were screw-connections) I do solder my wires to them instead of using the 4mm spades.
Neutrik has also a PowerCon variant, but these are rated the same current and about 3 times as expensive. Chassis parts are screw type and if you don’t have anything running the speaker type yet it might be better to go for these instead. (I don’t want to mix so stayed with the speaker type) Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated |
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11th Mar 2012 11:13pm |
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| pouf Member Since: 05 Aug 2010 Location: Athens Posts: 456  
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ok, i have to admit that this the only photo i understand  
my probs are 2. if this is reliable for my newfies http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AEOLUS-Double-Mo...6d710bbf72 and how i can use it at expositions to my def? Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated www.newfoundland.gr |
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12th Mar 2012 10:09am |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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Hi Pouf,
The blower can work, BUT...... it has two 1500W motors, this means you'll need a 3000W inverter (continues power, so calculate on 600 euro minimum for a low Q version) This inverter will draw around 300 Amps from your battery, so it will last about 10 minutes....., or maybe 20 with the engine running. No good i would say. Don't know how handy you are but you could source 2 ventilators from a car ventilation system, build them in a box with speed regulator. These will draw about 10-20 amps and give flow-output similar as your car system. Btw, as you are near your car anyway, why not make some "adapter" which fits over the puma top ventilation grids and to which you connect a vacuum cleaner hose. Simply close the second grid, put the ventilation/heating on "in-your-face" so all air is routed to these grids and use the car system for your purpose??  Last edited by tatra805 on 12th Mar 2012 11:14am. Edited 1 time in total |
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12th Mar 2012 10:46am |
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| pouf Member Since: 05 Aug 2010 Location: Athens Posts: 456
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EXELLENT IDEA !!!!  www.newfoundland.gr |
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12th Mar 2012 11:08am |
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| LaRouille Member Since: 13 Mar 2012 Location: Paris Posts: 3 
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hy! could you give us maker/reference and shop where you buy this in/out thermo regards from Paris :thumbsup: Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated |
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13th Mar 2012 3:16pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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LaRoulille
You can find it at conrad http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/854714/...4714_50_50 checktemp III it is called, also nagata.. nanegaka... euh nakatanenga (site sponsor)has them, and better service than conrad Click image to enlarge :) Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated |
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13th Mar 2012 3:25pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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Renamed the thread
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18th Mar 2012 7:39pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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Compressor / on board air.
When looking back at my experiences with compressors the best one I had was a 10 euro thing that functioned just long enough to get one tire back to pressure and get me home for dinner. I am sure the last minutes pressure was only rising as a result of heat increase rather than compression of air. All the others were waste investments, as I never HAD to use them. So is it really worth putting 500 euro in a decent 12V model? To me not, certainly as I saw branded products at these price levels which are no more than a labeled 1/5th price “Chinese” original. None of them is able to deliver nor qty nor lifespan. The only valid compressor is a belt driven one as I had on my discovery. With a small tank this combi was able to make airtools work as they are supposed to and not with 3 minute breaks between each nut. As the 110 has airco, no more place to hide the compressor at this moment. Valid alternative, and many times forgotten about: CO2 welding gas Cheap, can find it everywhere, safe, both good for inflating as for power tools and no moving parts so nothing to wear out. The main disadvantage is that it will be empty one moment. My reasoning with this is 8kg cylinder @ 60BAR 1kg = 0.5m3 8x0.5x60 = 240m3 @1BAR 1 tyre = approx 0.1m3 @ 2.5 BAR = 240/2.5*0.1 = 9.6 tires /bottle = sufficient I would guess (x2 for reinflating after offroad pressure) Cost 15 euro or 1.56 eur/tyre Compressor cost: 500 euro/ 1.56 = 320 tires to be at the same cost, didn’t find a supplier guaranteeing this. Another very good trick is to inflate your spare tire to 5 bar and carry a connection tube so you can equalize pressure between 2 tires. One remark, I get reactions to this of people who have pressurized air or diving botlles available. Although lighter and at first sight an alternative I have 2 concerns with them: Typical they hold 8 liters at 200 bar, this is only 1.6m3 and a lot less than the CO2 alternative. The pressure release valves for diving have no real pressure or flow, so you need to adapt a normal valve to fit the diving bottle, dangerous games at 200bar. Secondly, keeping 200bar of a primary element in the combustion process in my car doesn’t sound very attractive. I know that safety should not be an issue if all is done as it should but in case things go wrong you are carrying a bomb while the CO2 is an extinguisher. Talking about alternative uses for the CO2, It’s a fire extinguisher which doesn’t put everything full of powder. And if you turn the bottle up-side down you can use it to freeze stuff. Like beers on a hot day. Or fill your fresh foodbags with it to preserve longer. (Very Important: If you have access to oxygen bottles (medics etc) NEVER EVER use them, you’ll start a fire in a hurry when inflating a tire) Despite this opinion I had a 12v compressor available so went to work. This compressor is identical to a type of the viair brand, but bought at a truck shop for 1/4th of the price. 1. All original housing parts and handle removed, output replaced by a festo coupling and wires shortened to accept decent wiring.
2. Cover made from some checker plate to cover from impact and avoid the hot parts making contact with cargo
3. All mounted (on rubber bushings to reduce vibrations)
4. A pressure switch with festo couplings, relieve valve and pressure valve finds it place. (set to 4bar instead of 8 to save the compressor hard labour) Fix output near door at the rear, but as it's all festo system i can route and expand to anywhere. Click image to enlarge 5. Made a cradle for a pressure tank from a truck, which is plugged into the system. By not mounting it fix under the car i can use this to carry air from the car or to the car, eg charging the tank with a compressor at home. For normal use of the car the tank is easily removed and cargo area free while keeping the compressor for using directly.
Click image to enlarge 6. The CO2 bottle can still be build into the circuit if I want and fill the tank. (prolonged high flow from CO2 bottles can temp freeze the pressure valve) With this I do have the 12V compressor, airtank and CO2 bottle solution in one. TBC :) Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated |
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18th Mar 2012 7:45pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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WEBASTO AIRTOP
By accident, ( thanks Robert !!  ), I stumbled onto an opportunity to get a used airtop cheap, dirt-cheap. So although summer is approaching I had to jump for it.
I’ll try to explain both functionality and wiring of how I did it as I see a lot of questions around these systems on web. First of all the unit needed some good cleaning and a testrun to make sure it all worked as it should. So contributed a bit to global warming.
With just enough place available under the rear seats I was able to squeeze in the heater. (check the underside! As I almost positioned it on top of a reinforcement beam).
Exhaust and air inlet are nicely routed in the wheel arch and out of harms way.
Fuel take off. I found this solution on the german blacklandy forum. This is genial. It solves the issues with plugging into the OEM fuel lines or cutting out an acces to the tank in the rear floor or having to take the tank out to put the pickup tube. With time pressing I plugged in the pickup tube by making a small hole in the fill hose (punching not drilling to avoid rough edges and bad sealing and counting on the rubber pressure to seal off. 
Till now I don’t have any leaks appearing and in case they come I’ll install the tube adapter. Fuel Pump I enclosed the pump in a box avoiding mud and corrosion.
Electrics
The airtop came with the standard Rheostat switch, not a lot of bells and whistles. FYI, this is not a thermostat, it sets a fuel-regime for the burner but temp measurements is done by a sensor inside the airtop. (optionally you can replace the resistor with an external sensor for more accurate regulation) The benefit is that the rheostat can be mounted anywhere, basically this sets the burning regime. Simply said quick or slow heating. From this setting the airtop calculates with the measured airflowtemp how much fuel it needs to burn. It actually measures the difference between ambient and heater core and adapts the heating regime to that. If the difference is big (means cold environment) it will burn at max regime if the difference is small it will reduce the regime. This can cause the webasto to ventilate only and not start the burner if the ambient temp is high enough (eg summer). A bit confusing for newbies like me. The rheostat has 4 wires and “sends” 2 values over them; on/off and a variable burning regime. In the off position the signal is OFF and Minimum for burning regime. This means you can switch on the airtop by other means (putting +12vdc on the black wire from eg a thermostate, switch etc) and the burning regime regulator will be have minimum as setting. I routed the +12V output of the checktemp and the remote control to this so I get 3 possible ways to switch on the airtop. - rheostat - checktemp thermostat - remote control Note: when using the checktemp and the remote to control the airtop the burning regime will be minimum, while this may sound bad it actually is a good thing. The airtop is still measuring temperature difference and will in case of a cold car (eg winter mornings) burn at full power and once the airflow temp is reached switch down to lower regime. But if the airtemp is only a bit off, it will burn at minimum setting avoiding big temp swings or overheating the cabin. If the burning regime would be set at high by the rheostat, the burner would always burn in highest regime and switch off earlier, but in combination with a thermostat this would cause a continues short cycle of overheating/cooling down. Timers and Remotes I had timers installed in other cars and found them to be useless, most of the time I am too early or too late in the car to take full benefit of the heated interior. On the other hand, the remote control on/off I had was perfect for me as I could estimate within 30min when I will be going somewhere. So I sourced a remote and installed it. The remote is wired in such way that the thermostat switch has no influence. The remote has an internal settable timer. There are a lot of discussions to be found on how to install these remotes, FYI it is a very simple job. Don’t bother with harnesses etc, way too complicated as the remotes are in the first place intended for the water heaters and not for the airtop range. The concept behind it is very simple; modules. The heater knows what to do, it just needs a signal WHEN to do it: or from a switch, or from a thermostat or from a remote. The remote is a timer module with 3 main properties; a. it sends confirmation back, so you know the remote got the request b. it has a huge range. c. Time period is settable up to 120min runtime. The remote box has 3 wires and 1 antenna connector, nothing more. +12, Ground, signal The signal puts 12V to the right pin which switches on the webasto. SIMPLE It is nothing more or less than another switch putting 12V on the run-pin so it can be put parallel with any other controller. Find the wire which gets the signal from the thermostat, join the signal cable from the remote. DONE! Edit: the general pin layout is as follows: 1: +12VDC 2: BUS signal (specific to car maker if branded remote or W BUS for universal webasto non-branded remote) 3: Switched 12VDC (this is the pin you need) 4: na 5: ventilation mode (same as the classic switch on purple wire, so connect this pin to purple to ventilate over remote (T90 and higher) 6: ground THERMOSTATE with Checktemp This unit has a NC and NO contact output. Switched by a user set temp. As described earlier I have the NO contact routed in parallel with the OEM airco switch. This in short switches on the airco if temp goes above a set max and leaves the possibility to override the airco/switch on the airco manually. The NC contact (= closed as long as max temp is not reached) I have now routed in series with the webasto. Note: the NC/NO contacts are not separate, it is a bi-stabil relais meaning the 12V signal goes or to the NC or to the NO contact. The functioning is as follows: a. Cold car/winter: checktemp switches webasto on, webasto senses cold temp and starts heating till temp is reached. It then switches off the webasto and the airco ON (but in winter we have the airco switched off; so no cooling) b. Hot car/summer: checktemp will switch on Airco, once the temp is lowered it switches off the airco and thereby the webasto ON. As the webasto measures a hot inside temp it will not start a burning cycle but only ventilate and so make an airflow which circulates the cold air. Once the interior gets hot again, the airco will start cooling again and after that the webasto ventilate again. This gives a more even distribution of the airco in the cabin. Ventilator mode To make it even more confusing. The webasto has a ventilation-only mode; made for summertime. This saves the life of the burner. This mode is selected by switching the purple wire to ground. All other controls can still be used for switching on the webasto but it will only regulate the ventilator and not cycle the burner/pump etc. A switch is installed next to the rheostat so I can select summer/winter mode. Impressions so far Even with the wrong season in front of us it might be worth doing this installation now. Leaves me all the time for testing and finding out potential problems with the unit before it gets really cold. This small unit is a devil in a box, I was really impressed with the heat output and speed of this thing. Air or Water or both discussion I always thought the airheaters were a bad idea as a winter solution as they do not give any protection to the engine. With their cost being almost double of a water heater I really did not see the benefit. Even with only a couple of days of playing around with this unit I am changing my opinion drastically. Sure, they do not pre-heat the engine so cold starts are still an issue. But the efficiency for in-cabin heating is not comparable to a water heater. The webasto on the mb has to run minimum 45min to get any cabin heating at outside temps lower than -10. The airtop gives almost instantly hot air. The other big benefit is of course that you don’t have to heat a complete engine system before getting any air-heat in the cabin, this is really noticeable in cold climates, switch off the engine and even with the recirculation pump running the heat output is gone within 5 minutes. So I am very curious for next winter. We have minus temp forecasts for next weekend in the mountains so might throw in a sleeping bag and go find out. Would I still consider installing a water heater? Yes, for engine heating only but even then a 220VAC block heater as the DEFA system seems to be a valid and less costly alternative to a diesel heater if you park in the civilized world most of the time. Hmmmm,…. Again more considerations to make…. TBC :) Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated Last edited by tatra805 on 27th Mar 2012 4:10pm. Edited 2 times in total |
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26th Mar 2012 3:27pm |
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| GREENI Member Since: 22 Aug 2010 Location: staffs Posts: 10383 
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Great post
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26th Mar 2012 3:47pm |
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